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I do think you have a point about how Apple users tend to live with Apple choices while everybody else mostly ignores them. I think this manifests in less of a taking sides thing. Linux activists definitely root against Windows, sometimes more than they root for Linux, and they certainly don’t put the same amount of energy on Apple hostility.
I think this is wider than that, though. Linux and Apple users aren’t nearly as focused on their own quirks and foibles, but everybody loves to dunk on MS. Not that I don’t, necessarily, but sometimes the difference in attitude jumps at me.
It’s not just them, either. There’s a subset of companies, like Epic or Mozilla that get this a lot. It’s more so in gaming circles (EA! Ubisoft! Activision!) but not just there.
Have you seen Linux users whenever anything controversial happens? Like rust in the kernel, C devs being jerks, Wayland, Pipewire, Flatpaks, or tbh anything else that causes Linux users to loose their minds?
But, you know, it’s in that left-of-centre, obnoxious-software-engineer way where they all think they have the right answer to whatever the issue is, they’re going to save the world and make Linux the One OS and everybody else is an idiot. That doesn’t count.
Well you see my distribution of choice is the perfect choice, my window manager is the best one, and my specific choice of utilies (ex: Terminal, shell, text editor, file manager, toolkit, etc) are the best ones. Clearly you’re the one trying to divide Linux users :3
(And of course my standard is the best one, yes there are thirty other universal standards but mine is better)
That is at least in part because Windows has actively undermined Linux for years, and the older ones of us also remember M$ killing OS/2 (&Novell on tge server side) and learnt our lesson not to trust them even when it looks like they’re playing nice
I feel like in these online conversations where everybody is mostly just viscerally reacting to a headline people forget that a lot, and that worries me about as much as the underlying subjects of conversation.
I’ll be honest, I’m about as exhausted with both sides of that argument. I use both Linux and Windows daily and I have zero patience for people parading out this type of train of thought. I care about what works and, for obvious reasons, I’d much prefer if the effective default was free and open source, but the “We root against Windows because it was mean to us” thing is a borderline non-sequitur as far as I’m concerned.
Now don’t try to tell me I made it up, there’s enough evidence for it to have its own wiki page.
Similarly there’s FUD an approach they most certainly didnt invent but did an excellent job of weaponising to a fine art.
And so on and so forth. Those of us who have been around a while know the true shape of it, and that leopard has never changed its spots.
I got my MCSE on NT4 back when CNE was much more respected. I still work in IT so yes I too use both windows & linux, that doesn’t stop me having a clear eyed view of them.
They’re also not the worst by a long chalk, google, meta, palantir are all far less principled and far more detrimental to society.
M$ still arent good though, and its woven into their culture
I’ve been around since MS-DOS 3, let me put that out there.
Also, a corporation isn’t a person where I’m from. You guys can sort your garbage legal system in your own time. (alright, so it’s a juridical person, which is a collective form of personhood where you can hold some rights, but you definitely do NOT have a physical person’s rights and you CERTAINLY don’t have an actual personality).
So besides repeating common tropes of online commentariat, which are by and large memes more than arguments, I’d point out that it’s not just that they aren’t the worst offenders, it’s that the conversation is about why they get that exact set of tropes waved in every conversation where other companies that do those same things do not.
The example I’m using is Apple, just because they’ve deployed the closest example to this, but they work because… well, you didn’t list them.
You seem to think that this is about being “for” or “against” companies. This is about why people would think it’s one or the other, and why they assign different attributes to corporations that largely operate in similar ways.
It also probably helps that it is easy to ignore Apple and there might not be a feeling of missing out for those who don’t care for the Apple ecosystem. As big as Apple is it is kind of niche in the sense that a Windows or Linux user can just ignore its existence and not feel affected.
But, when it comes to Windows there’s lot of mainstream software, games, and even hardware compatibility that is affected by Windows dominance. Stuff like wine and proton being needed and not getting the same video card driver support leads to more resentment Windows actually having offerings people who tend to complain want.
I think there’s something to the idea that Apple walls its garden so well people outside the wall don’t care about what happens inside it even when they disagree with it on principle.
I think you’re underplaying how big the garden is, though. You are thinking about this just in terms of PC OSs, but that’s not where Apple’s biggest presence is.
I got apple devices, but it is more a take or leave it type situation where I wouldn’t feel like I’m missing out if I didn’t have them. Its just one of those nice options, but not irreplaceable tech to me.
I do think you have a point about how Apple users tend to live with Apple choices while everybody else mostly ignores them. I think this manifests in less of a taking sides thing. Linux activists definitely root against Windows, sometimes more than they root for Linux, and they certainly don’t put the same amount of energy on Apple hostility.
I think this is wider than that, though. Linux and Apple users aren’t nearly as focused on their own quirks and foibles, but everybody loves to dunk on MS. Not that I don’t, necessarily, but sometimes the difference in attitude jumps at me.
It’s not just them, either. There’s a subset of companies, like Epic or Mozilla that get this a lot. It’s more so in gaming circles (EA! Ubisoft! Activision!) but not just there.
Have you seen Linux users whenever anything controversial happens? Like rust in the kernel, C devs being jerks, Wayland, Pipewire, Flatpaks, or tbh anything else that causes Linux users to loose their minds?
Oh, they love to chew each other up.
But, you know, it’s in that left-of-centre, obnoxious-software-engineer way where they all think they have the right answer to whatever the issue is, they’re going to save the world and make Linux the One OS and everybody else is an idiot. That doesn’t count.
Well you see my distribution of choice is the perfect choice, my window manager is the best one, and my specific choice of utilies (ex: Terminal, shell, text editor, file manager, toolkit, etc) are the best ones. Clearly you’re the one trying to divide Linux users :3
(And of course my standard is the best one, yes there are thirty other universal standards but mine is better)
That is at least in part because Windows has actively undermined Linux for years, and the older ones of us also remember M$ killing OS/2 (&Novell on tge server side) and learnt our lesson not to trust them even when it looks like they’re playing nice
Corporations aren’t people. Brands aren’t people.
I feel like in these online conversations where everybody is mostly just viscerally reacting to a headline people forget that a lot, and that worries me about as much as the underlying subjects of conversation.
I’ll be honest, I’m about as exhausted with both sides of that argument. I use both Linux and Windows daily and I have zero patience for people parading out this type of train of thought. I care about what works and, for obvious reasons, I’d much prefer if the effective default was free and open source, but the “We root against Windows because it was mean to us” thing is a borderline non-sequitur as far as I’m concerned.
Setting aside the fact that legally a corporation actually is a person, there is such a thing as a corporate culture, and a corporate ethos.
Let’s start with an old microsoft ethos: embrace extend extinguish
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish
Now don’t try to tell me I made it up, there’s enough evidence for it to have its own wiki page.
Similarly there’s FUD an approach they most certainly didnt invent but did an excellent job of weaponising to a fine art.
And so on and so forth. Those of us who have been around a while know the true shape of it, and that leopard has never changed its spots.
I got my MCSE on NT4 back when CNE was much more respected. I still work in IT so yes I too use both windows & linux, that doesn’t stop me having a clear eyed view of them.
They’re also not the worst by a long chalk, google, meta, palantir are all far less principled and far more detrimental to society.
M$ still arent good though, and its woven into their culture
I’ve been around since MS-DOS 3, let me put that out there.
Also, a corporation isn’t a person where I’m from. You guys can sort your garbage legal system in your own time. (alright, so it’s a juridical person, which is a collective form of personhood where you can hold some rights, but you definitely do NOT have a physical person’s rights and you CERTAINLY don’t have an actual personality).
So besides repeating common tropes of online commentariat, which are by and large memes more than arguments, I’d point out that it’s not just that they aren’t the worst offenders, it’s that the conversation is about why they get that exact set of tropes waved in every conversation where other companies that do those same things do not.
The example I’m using is Apple, just because they’ve deployed the closest example to this, but they work because… well, you didn’t list them.
You seem to think that this is about being “for” or “against” companies. This is about why people would think it’s one or the other, and why they assign different attributes to corporations that largely operate in similar ways.
It also probably helps that it is easy to ignore Apple and there might not be a feeling of missing out for those who don’t care for the Apple ecosystem. As big as Apple is it is kind of niche in the sense that a Windows or Linux user can just ignore its existence and not feel affected.
But, when it comes to Windows there’s lot of mainstream software, games, and even hardware compatibility that is affected by Windows dominance. Stuff like wine and proton being needed and not getting the same video card driver support leads to more resentment Windows actually having offerings people who tend to complain want.
I think there’s something to the idea that Apple walls its garden so well people outside the wall don’t care about what happens inside it even when they disagree with it on principle.
I think you’re underplaying how big the garden is, though. You are thinking about this just in terms of PC OSs, but that’s not where Apple’s biggest presence is.
I got apple devices, but it is more a take or leave it type situation where I wouldn’t feel like I’m missing out if I didn’t have them. Its just one of those nice options, but not irreplaceable tech to me.