My experience is varied. Some of the rural folk, but also the men who think they’re above that, and think Trump will cut their taxes. Evangelicals too.
I’ve even gone off on some religious nut to “repent his following an Antichrist,” which spooked him enough to make him leave.
My experience is almost solely with the rural and religious. By the time I lived in a place where the suburban middle-class civility politics variant of right-wing ghoul was a significant population, I had gained a much greater ability to be discerning in who I chose to be in my social circle.
Calling them on that outright rarely does anything, unless we can get someone else to follow up with the same until we wear them down. And they blow up every single time.
I’m honestly of the opinion that 95% of them are unsalvageable by any means.
The point of hammering them on these points is to make them ashamed and quiet again to reduce the spread and acceptance of their vile shite.
You can’t cure the disease, but quarantine can reduce its spread.
See, my first instinct is to call those elites they love? Manipulate Liberals. But that takes work and deep cultural access and context to discern, and I rarely have that.
Unfortunately, calling the elites that they love ‘liberals’ or ‘socialists’ just gets them angry at you for daring to defame their good holsum corporate masters. Even before Elongated Muskrat was a conservative darling, trying to point out that he was sucking government subsidies at great cost to the taxpayer got many conservatives I spoke with genuinely angry. “Yes, he’s a businessman, that makes him smart!”
This is why I usually start with a frame of hating Liberals. Out loud. 5-10 minutes of “sounding like Tucker” to get them nodding along. Invite them to learn. Whether they do or don’t, make them feel smart for even nodding along… And then switch the frame when we hit a natural pivot point. It doesn’t work every time, but they at least walk away respecting me for not being an elitist Liberal.
See, when that pivot point hits, the conservatives I’ve known all either laugh it off or get angry. It’s not “Oh wow, I actually agree with these points!”, but “Ha ha, that’s a neat trick, like asking someone for Pen 15” or “This damn dirty crypto-liberal is trying to trick me with his mind games!”
See, when that pivot point hits, the conservatives I’ve known all either laugh it off or get angry. It’s not “Oh wow, I actually agree with these points!”, but “Ha ha, that’s a neat trick, like asking someone for Pen 15” or “This damn dirty crypto-liberal is trying to trick me with his mind games!”
Practice helps. So does being a stranger that’s visibly working class. I suspect you’ve run into a wall for being known and as a “hostile” for being a “liberal”. My best success comes from when I can get around that, one on one. Got a former coworker who still goes to that evangelical church, but watches Democracy Now every day.
But also… Yeah, that happens. Sometimes it makes people question their ideas, sometimes we’re sewing seeds for someone else to water. And that’s okay.
In a very real way, we are talking about Christian-style evangelism.
Practice helps. So does being a stranger that’s visibly working class. I suspect you’ve run into a wall for being known and as a “hostile” for being a “liberal”.
At the time, I was very much a good young man who never claimed to be anything more than a moderate around these people. Those who knew me largely took it as what we might call ‘debatelording’ rather than seriously.
Me, having just led them by the nose to water and watching them not drink: “I’m just saying, you have to consider all sides of the issue.”
“Whatabout whatabout whatabout? Ha ha ha, let’s not talk politics anyway”
In any case, I stopped wasting my time years ago, and wear my socialism on my sleeve nowadays.
Those people ate out of Bernie’s hand on his fox news town hall.
At that pivot, sometimes before? I like to come out of the closet as a raging Leftist, and promising that I hate Liberals more than my audience does. “I want you to have a fair shot, even if you’ve been told I’m the devil.” I need a context where that won’t get me shot to pull that out.
“Capitalism just means that everything is owned by those elites that don’t f#$king live here.” Is one of my favorite lines. It goes well with calling the person in front of me “my neighbor because I can look you in the eye.”
Those people ate out of Bernie’s hand on his fox news town hall.
That’s not the same as being convinced. In 2015 and 2016 I was all over Bernie’s potential for convincing conservatives, because they seemed receptive - as it wore on, it became increasingly clear that it was the same passing agreement I was familiar with that would be entirely forgotten and reversed by the next hour. It’s the same phenomenon as Trump repeating whatever the last person who spoke to him said.
“Capitalism just means that everything is owned by those elites that don’t f#$king live here.” Is one of my favorite lines. It goes well with calling the person in front of me “my neighbor because I can look you in the eye.”
That pisses people off in my experience, especially with many in the lower-middle class owning land that they don’t live on in Appalachia. Besides, the elite WORKED for that land. It’s basically the same as telling these poor folks that they don’t deserve what THEY work for too! /s
It only pisses them off if they think the elites who own it are filthy liberals - as long as the elites virtual signal about rugged capitalism and Christianity, they get their boots licked even as they raise prices and squeeze an already impoverished community.
My experience is almost solely with the rural and religious. By the time I lived in a place where the suburban middle-class civility politics variant of right-wing ghoul was a significant population, I had gained a much greater ability to be discerning in who I chose to be in my social circle.
I’m honestly of the opinion that 95% of them are unsalvageable by any means.
The point of hammering them on these points is to make them ashamed and quiet again to reduce the spread and acceptance of their vile shite.
You can’t cure the disease, but quarantine can reduce its spread.
Unfortunately, calling the elites that they love ‘liberals’ or ‘socialists’ just gets them angry at you for daring to defame their good holsum corporate masters. Even before Elongated Muskrat was a conservative darling, trying to point out that he was sucking government subsidies at great cost to the taxpayer got many conservatives I spoke with genuinely angry. “Yes, he’s a businessman, that makes him smart!”
See, when that pivot point hits, the conservatives I’ve known all either laugh it off or get angry. It’s not “Oh wow, I actually agree with these points!”, but “Ha ha, that’s a neat trick, like asking someone for Pen 15” or “This damn dirty crypto-liberal is trying to trick me with his mind games!”
Practice helps. So does being a stranger that’s visibly working class. I suspect you’ve run into a wall for being known and as a “hostile” for being a “liberal”. My best success comes from when I can get around that, one on one. Got a former coworker who still goes to that evangelical church, but watches Democracy Now every day.
But also… Yeah, that happens. Sometimes it makes people question their ideas, sometimes we’re sewing seeds for someone else to water. And that’s okay.
In a very real way, we are talking about Christian-style evangelism.
At the time, I was very much a good young man who never claimed to be anything more than a moderate around these people. Those who knew me largely took it as what we might call ‘debatelording’ rather than seriously.
Me, having just led them by the nose to water and watching them not drink: “I’m just saying, you have to consider all sides of the issue.”
“Whatabout whatabout whatabout? Ha ha ha, let’s not talk politics anyway”
In any case, I stopped wasting my time years ago, and wear my socialism on my sleeve nowadays.
Those people ate out of Bernie’s hand on his fox news town hall.
At that pivot, sometimes before? I like to come out of the closet as a raging Leftist, and promising that I hate Liberals more than my audience does. “I want you to have a fair shot, even if you’ve been told I’m the devil.” I need a context where that won’t get me shot to pull that out.
“Capitalism just means that everything is owned by those elites that don’t f#$king live here.” Is one of my favorite lines. It goes well with calling the person in front of me “my neighbor because I can look you in the eye.”
That’s not the same as being convinced. In 2015 and 2016 I was all over Bernie’s potential for convincing conservatives, because they seemed receptive - as it wore on, it became increasingly clear that it was the same passing agreement I was familiar with that would be entirely forgotten and reversed by the next hour. It’s the same phenomenon as Trump repeating whatever the last person who spoke to him said.
That pisses people off in my experience, especially with many in the lower-middle class owning land that they don’t live on in Appalachia. Besides, the elite WORKED for that land. It’s basically the same as telling these poor folks that they don’t deserve what THEY work for too! /s
It only pisses them off if they think the elites who own it are filthy liberals - as long as the elites virtual signal about rugged capitalism and Christianity, they get their boots licked even as they raise prices and squeeze an already impoverished community.
Well, different rhetoric for different locales.
This has been fun!
Next time let’s explore how you might bring up some Appalachian history that isnt being taught.
Unfortunately, they side with the strikebreakers anymore. Might be different in coal towns.