There does seem to be more overlap in our assessments than what I normally see in these kinds of debates: opposition in good faith is practically unheard of, so I’m quick to just point out fallacies and post fairly bluntly in a way that’s more addressed to any potential lurkers than the poster I’m actually replying to. I’m not getting that vibe from you, so fuck yeah I’ll cool it down!

every time material consequences are raised you respond with some form of absolute statement. (e.g, off the top of my head without directly citing you: ‘any kid could be Hitler,’ ‘it all won’t matter anyway,’ ‘humanity is a lost cause’). While this isn’t intrinsically bad it does come across as cowardly rhetoric. Conceding to absolutes is also what we might refer to as faith.

Honestly the ‘any kid could be Hitler’ thing is kind of moot. All that’s saying is that the parent isn’t in absolute control of how their kid turns out. But let’s ignore that and pretend 100% of good parents result in children who grow to be good adults. I still don’t see that making a difference. There are so many bad parents cranking out children who grow up to be bad adults that it’s a losing battle either way. That ratio is exaggerated in people who are in positions of power: turns out it’s really difficult and really rare for a decent person to acquire one of those positions, be it political, military, corporate, financial, you name it. So individually, raising a kid to be moral in a world where evil excels is setting them up for some extreme frustration; and on a larger scale, the odds of that kid growing to have the desire and means -and community support- to make a meaningful shift in things like civil liberties? It sounds like a heart warming movie, but not at all something that can realistically happen.

Is that cowardly? It might be… it is admitting defeat, and defeatism can definitely be a form of cowardice. I don’t see it as an act of faith though: faith is belief without evidence. To the contrary, we unfortunately have an abundance of evidence pointing toward governments around the globe shifting to authoritarianism, civil liberties evaporating, hatred of outgroups becoming the norm and even celebrated, wealth gaps widening, and environmental feedback loops pushing the global climate closer and closer to the limits of supporting human life. And none of those things have we collectively stepped back and said “well shit, we really need to start fixing this” - instead we’ve slammed down on the metaphorical (and literal) gas pedal such that those things aren’t just worsening, but that they’re worsening at an accelerating rate. If you see a car straight-on approaching the edge of a cliff at 90mph and accelerating, and it’s a hundred or so yards out, it isn’t exactly an act of prophecy to claim that it’s about to hurl itself off the edge.

are we talking about morality or strategy here?

I’m not sure. Neither? Both?

If we’re talking about morality, then just say plainly you oppose reproduction categorically.

There’s a distinction between reproduction categorically, and the choice to reproduce. We’ve already bashed heads over that. What bothers me is people who choose to reproduce without any real thought into what that means for the life they just created. Anecdotally, even my own parents have berated me for denying them their grandchildren, and denying myself and my wife ‘life’s greatest joy’. I’ve finally gotten them to fuck off after repeatedly telling them to stop being selfish or telling me to be selfish; and that I love my unborn child far too much to bring them into the hellhole of a planet we’ve built for the next generation.

…but reproduction categorically? Well, like you said there are a lot of folks who aren’t actually in a position to make a choice. I still fear for their children, but I have nothing against the parents who are put into that horrible position.

If we’re talking real-world, effective strategy then we must confront things dialectically because material facts matter.

I’m not sure what you mean. Real-world, effective strategy to do what? Turn humanity around and fix our dying planet? It’s a nice dream, and I’d absolutely love to be wrong here, but again the real world trends are accelerating toward that cliff.

Real world strategy to reduce suffering? Well, you know my stance on that already: don’t choose to have kids.

We can’t just dismiss things with absolutism for being inconvenient to your existing position.

Accounting for those inconvenient things is what landed me in this opinion in the first place. I don’t say this as an insult or point of aggression, but I really do think you’re projecting. I don’t see a rational basis for optimism. Frankly I’m a tad jealous of that optimism even if it is irrational… basing my worldview on current events certainly isn’t doing any favors to my mental health.

If your stance is purely about suffering, then you are indeed making a claim about which lives are worth bringing into existence… namely, those that won’t suffer. That is a sanctity/value claim, just under another name. Which is it? Either you admit this is a value framework, or you have no grounds for your conclusion. I didn’t put words in your mouth, I simply interpreted the ones you put into the world as any reasonable person would.

Disagree on that last bit, but I can shrug it off as a miscommunication. That aside, again I’m not really sure what you mean. I understand sanctity to mean holding religious value, or holy. I don’t personally believe in any of that, but that isn’t exclusive to morality or values - there is absolutely a framework. There’s also a lot of overlap - for many, that framework comes from religion. But concepts like good and evil, moral and immoral, etc can and do exist in a secular context as well. It used to be my belief that the majority of people are overall good; but that evil people have a tendency to rise to positions of power due to being okay with advancing themselves with unethical actions. That second bit still appears to be true, but as for the majority of people being good bit… well, the 2016 election was last bullet in that liver, with the corpse of my faith in humanity further perforated in 2024: it isn’t just one evil dipshit on top oppressing the masses, it’s that a solid third of the masses fucking love that evil dipshit for the evil dipshit things he says and does. Another third of the masses is maybe not cheering the fucker, but are so apathetic to that kind of evil taking power that they couldn’t be bothered to do so much as color in a quarter-inch fucking rectangle in opposition to that possibility. Genuinely good people are a minority; and genuinely good people in power are a unicorn.

So, there’s the grounds for my conclusion. Evil is the norm. The only realistic path ahead of us I see is the continuing degradation of our rights and quality of life until our planet is pushed beyond the conditions that support human life. This will take generations yet, but that’s barely a blip on humanity’s timeline: we’re a hundred or so yards out from that cliff, and now’s not a great time to be adding passengers in the hopes that they’ll grow up and figure out how to add wings to the car before it hits the ground.