The expectations the feminists have, are a part of the patriarchy, is what I’m guessing they’re trying to say, so it’s ultimately still the fault of broader patriarchy and it’s standards.
I mean dude think about it. You are almost literally saying that any bad things feminists do are because of the patriarchy. Any failings in feminist theory is because of patriarchy. Any lack of concern for men, any failure to worry about the lack of concern for men, it’s all patriarchy.
Does that really ring true to you? I mean, if patriarchy is such a nebulous thing that it’s subconsciously affecting the very things that feminists choose to worry about…then we should be able to lay all of feminism’s successes at the feet of patriarchy too, right? Women’s sufferage? Patriarchy. Freedom of choice? Patriarchy. Women in the workplace? Patriarchy. You may think it was feminism, but clearly the invisible guiding hand of patriarchy is influencing feminists.
Or is it only patriarchy when it’s something bad?
Look, I’m not saying there’s no such thing as patriarchy. Or misogyny. I absolutely believe that there are systemic injustices in the world perpetrated against women en masse. I also believe that our historically patriarchal society has caused a level of male-centric bias in our world.
I object to the complete and total failure of feminism to admit to any negative effects whatsoever. Feminism is not self-reflective and therefore can never be egalitarian. It will always be a struggle for one group against another.
I think it does ring true. I think you can also say that, in a way, feminism successes do come from patriarchy, that is to say-
It is built upon patriarchy, through the analysis, critique and solutions offered by feminists to it.
What you are critiquing is the hypocrisy and personal individual failings of feminists, which is valid, but is another problem entirely I feel.
Perhaps you are saying these hypocrises and personal individual failings affect alot more feminists than feminists themselves would like to admit? Or perhaps that these hypocrises and personal individual failings have poisoned feminism and it’s touted ideals? That feminists who fail in these ways affect the ideology of feminism and that THIS feminism, the “feminism of hypocrites” is what now pervades majority feminist thought?
No, I’m saying that of the list of things feminists are concerned about - wage gap, abortion access, burden of child rearing, intersectional issues - no where on that list is any bad things feminists do. I’m not saying it’s systemic (I do happen to believe that, but it’s irrelevant at the moment), I’m just saying it happens enough that feminism should be worried about it, at least a little. That lack of concern is damning.
It’s like having one abusive cop in a department. Ok, there’s one bad cop and 99 good ones, but the 99 good ones are not denouncing him. They are protecting him. So in a way, you have 100 bad cops. If the 99 cops were denouncing him, refusing to work with him, petitioning the police union to disown him, etc…that would be fine. But they never do.
Individual women being shitty is individual women being shitty. Feminism refusing to admit it has a problem in its ranks is feminism being shitty.
If a woman tells a man to having emotions isn’t manly then they’re not acting as a feminist. That, by definition, is an idea that comes to us from the religious, moral, and civic tradition that produced the modern patriarchy. The people, men and women, who say and do things that reflect and maintain those ideas are failing the ideals of feminism.
To use an analogy, North Korea calls itself a democracy. They do not elect a leader. That doesn’t mean democracy has failed, just that this country is doing anti democratic things.
Great! That’s a great outlook. Now please start saying those things without a guy like me having to browbeat you into it first. And start saying them to the women who are failing feminism, not to us. If feminism would reject and excise these women, and focus on teaching women to be better (not exclusively focusing on that! Just make it part of the program) then everything I’ve been talking about would be a nothingburger.
Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension, because that’s what I and like 4 other commenters have been saying. Then you can go ahead and submit a complaint to the president of feminism, since you seem to think that they’re having a meeting and deciding that you personally aren’t masculine enough for them.
Your anger does not change the fact that feminism is failing boys in this way. You want to stop alienating boys? Clean up your own house and start giving a damn about them.
Bro, that’s the fuckin point. The patriarchal nature of our society has done this, not feminism. And since we still live under a largely patriarchal society, men are the ones empowered to do something about it. Should those women individually be better? Yeah, probably. But they’re still not really the ones running the fuckin show.
You want to talk about cleaning up house? Maybe look around at what you can do instead of expecting a group that has been treated as property for the last 1000 years to do the emotional labor that us men have been neglecting in order to spare your feelings.
Emotional labor is everyone’s responsibility. Women don’t get to have a “turn” of being dismissive and belittling. If you don’t give a shit about men, boys are not going to give a shit about you. That’s why boys are turning against feminism. Boys need help. Boys need understanding. Boys need nurturing and strong male role models. Boys need someone who says “I see you and understand your struggles, and they are valid, and I want to help”. Feminism refuses to do that, so boys don’t participate in feminism.
Which I think is fair on both sides. Black Lives Matter isn’t concerned with the struggles of Native people. It’s a fight, but it’s not their fight. If feminism wants to be exclusively a voice for women, that’s not a bad thing. But it’s to be expected boys won’t consider themselves feminists. They may support it in principle, but then if they’re constantly told they’re the enemy because of the sins of their fathers, well, maybe they won’t support it.
I mean dude think about it. You are almost literally saying that any bad things feminists do are because of the patriarchy. Any failings in feminist theory is because of patriarchy. Any lack of concern for men, any failure to worry about the lack of concern for men, it’s all patriarchy.
Does that really ring true to you? I mean, if patriarchy is such a nebulous thing that it’s subconsciously affecting the very things that feminists choose to worry about…then we should be able to lay all of feminism’s successes at the feet of patriarchy too, right? Women’s sufferage? Patriarchy. Freedom of choice? Patriarchy. Women in the workplace? Patriarchy. You may think it was feminism, but clearly the invisible guiding hand of patriarchy is influencing feminists.
Or is it only patriarchy when it’s something bad?
Look, I’m not saying there’s no such thing as patriarchy. Or misogyny. I absolutely believe that there are systemic injustices in the world perpetrated against women en masse. I also believe that our historically patriarchal society has caused a level of male-centric bias in our world.
I object to the complete and total failure of feminism to admit to any negative effects whatsoever. Feminism is not self-reflective and therefore can never be egalitarian. It will always be a struggle for one group against another.
I think it does ring true. I think you can also say that, in a way, feminism successes do come from patriarchy, that is to say-
It is built upon patriarchy, through the analysis, critique and solutions offered by feminists to it.
What you are critiquing is the hypocrisy and personal individual failings of feminists, which is valid, but is another problem entirely I feel.
Perhaps you are saying these hypocrises and personal individual failings affect alot more feminists than feminists themselves would like to admit? Or perhaps that these hypocrises and personal individual failings have poisoned feminism and it’s touted ideals? That feminists who fail in these ways affect the ideology of feminism and that THIS feminism, the “feminism of hypocrites” is what now pervades majority feminist thought?
No, I’m saying that of the list of things feminists are concerned about - wage gap, abortion access, burden of child rearing, intersectional issues - no where on that list is any bad things feminists do. I’m not saying it’s systemic (I do happen to believe that, but it’s irrelevant at the moment), I’m just saying it happens enough that feminism should be worried about it, at least a little. That lack of concern is damning.
It’s like having one abusive cop in a department. Ok, there’s one bad cop and 99 good ones, but the 99 good ones are not denouncing him. They are protecting him. So in a way, you have 100 bad cops. If the 99 cops were denouncing him, refusing to work with him, petitioning the police union to disown him, etc…that would be fine. But they never do.
Individual women being shitty is individual women being shitty. Feminism refusing to admit it has a problem in its ranks is feminism being shitty.
If a woman tells a man to having emotions isn’t manly then they’re not acting as a feminist. That, by definition, is an idea that comes to us from the religious, moral, and civic tradition that produced the modern patriarchy. The people, men and women, who say and do things that reflect and maintain those ideas are failing the ideals of feminism.
To use an analogy, North Korea calls itself a democracy. They do not elect a leader. That doesn’t mean democracy has failed, just that this country is doing anti democratic things.
Great! That’s a great outlook. Now please start saying those things without a guy like me having to browbeat you into it first. And start saying them to the women who are failing feminism, not to us. If feminism would reject and excise these women, and focus on teaching women to be better (not exclusively focusing on that! Just make it part of the program) then everything I’ve been talking about would be a nothingburger.
Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension, because that’s what I and like 4 other commenters have been saying. Then you can go ahead and submit a complaint to the president of feminism, since you seem to think that they’re having a meeting and deciding that you personally aren’t masculine enough for them.
Grow up.
Your anger does not change the fact that feminism is failing boys in this way. You want to stop alienating boys? Clean up your own house and start giving a damn about them.
Bro, that’s the fuckin point. The patriarchal nature of our society has done this, not feminism. And since we still live under a largely patriarchal society, men are the ones empowered to do something about it. Should those women individually be better? Yeah, probably. But they’re still not really the ones running the fuckin show.
You want to talk about cleaning up house? Maybe look around at what you can do instead of expecting a group that has been treated as property for the last 1000 years to do the emotional labor that us men have been neglecting in order to spare your feelings.
Emotional labor is everyone’s responsibility. Women don’t get to have a “turn” of being dismissive and belittling. If you don’t give a shit about men, boys are not going to give a shit about you. That’s why boys are turning against feminism. Boys need help. Boys need understanding. Boys need nurturing and strong male role models. Boys need someone who says “I see you and understand your struggles, and they are valid, and I want to help”. Feminism refuses to do that, so boys don’t participate in feminism.
Which I think is fair on both sides. Black Lives Matter isn’t concerned with the struggles of Native people. It’s a fight, but it’s not their fight. If feminism wants to be exclusively a voice for women, that’s not a bad thing. But it’s to be expected boys won’t consider themselves feminists. They may support it in principle, but then if they’re constantly told they’re the enemy because of the sins of their fathers, well, maybe they won’t support it.