A man of leisure living in the present, waiting for the future.
That doesn’t prove they target civilians, it just proves they are okay with collateral damage. The above is a claim about intent.
IDF terrorists just claim every civilian male they kill is Hamas.
Meanwhile Hamas just murders men, women, and children and doesn’t even pretend they are trying to hit military targets, blindly firing rockets or sending out violent hordes.
The Ottoman Empire forbade them to buy these lands during the XIXth century, and would never have accepted the british decisions, were the arabs just supposed to let them declare statehood ?
Yes. You skipped a few steps in there though, the Ottomans were deposed, the British allowed them to buy land, Arab nationalists started massacring Jews because they didn’t like them legally buying land, a 2-state solution became impossible, the UN divided them into countries because of this, Israel declared themselves a country with the borders the UN drew, Palestinian Arabs declared war on them and tried to destroy their state, they lost, and those were were belligerent or left had lands annexed (Nakba.) Not murdering your peaceful neighbors for legally buying seems like a low bar to clear, as does letting them have their own home where you can’t murder them. If they had remained peaceful the levant might be one multiethnic country today. Heck, if they had stopped trying to murder the Jews at any time for the past 70 years Palestine might not be in this situation.
And what do israelis want ? A two-states solution ?
Good question, I’d be interested to see polling on this matter if you’ve read any.
Why won’t they put an end to the settlements then
Probably because:
why is it anything else than a net gain for them and a loss for palestinians ?
These nations are at war, which is arguably a zero-sum game. Israel is negotiating from a place of strength, which means they can further their own interests far more effectively than Palestine can.
What are the compromises that we(sterners) are making ?
I don’t follow. Why should westerners make any compromises, and for whom?
The anger of israelis led to them killing thousands of people, no ?
They were able to do that because of a modern military, not because of anger.
But yeah, you’re probably right, i don’t really know what they expected, some kind of victory perhaps, they’re at war as well, and seized an occasion.
A Pyrrhic victory at best, given the destruction the attack has caused their nation.
If Egypt cared about palestinians they would help Israel in deporting them ?
If Egypt cared more about Palestinian lives than land claims and putting pressure on Israel, they would let Gazans voluntarily leave en masse, (even if Egypt were not their final destination;) deportation implies they are forced to leave.
Most of them are still suffering because of their support/principles. Every single one of them is willing to help Palestine, but the more you’re trying to put pressure and the more you’re exposing your citizens for reprisals, so the extent of their actions may vary, i still think that they could win but what do i know really.
The kinds of “help” they are offering are very limited, diplomatic stuff mostly. Many of the surrounding countries that let Palestinians stay have to deal with terror groups launching attacks on Israel from within their borders and reprisals, like Hezbollah in Lebanon who are now part of the government. The PLO caused civil war in Jordan when too many Palestinians settled there.
Every Arab nation that went to war with Israel on behalf of Palestine got their asses handed to them, and many lost territory for it. That’s how Egypt lost Gaza (which they no longer want back, refusing it in the Camp David accords.)
(And realpolitik don’t look at morals, it is machiavelism, looking for what’s fair/right/virtuous and then the realist ways to do this seems a better practice)
It’s good to have morals, but morals don’t win wars, nor does righteousness. Acknowledging the reality of one’s political and military situation is nessicary if one is to improve the situation of their nation.
Predictable? Yes, par for the course for this insanely violent and fascist regime.
It’s par for the course for any nation that is attacked to counter-attack.
Inevitable? It’s well documented that the IOF ignored many warnings about the incoming Hamas resistance. Not only that, netanyahu funded Hamas to weaken the Palestinian cause weak and fractured… Let’s start there.
I’m saying the response was inevitable, not the attack.
Least bad choice… It’s sickening to me that you suggest there aren’t better ways to conduct war than to bomb hospitals, schools, and refugee camps. For a military that’s supposedly one of the best in the world to say 7000+ children needed to die is a joke. It’s incredibly obvious to any reasonable person.
The alternative to going in with air support is sending in troops without it into a well prepared terrorist den where they would suffer high casualties. Yes, air strikes are the least bad choice for them. Israel essentially had to choose between the lives of its own people and the lives of people who live in a belligerent nation. That they didn’t sacrifice their own for Palestinians, thereby making Israel less safe, should be unsurprising.
Game theory & realpolitik = Nazis? Also absurd. You don’t seem to have a good understanding of what defined the Nazis, because you keep invoking them for ridiculous comparisons. Hitler liked puppies, liking puppies does not make one meaningfully Hitler-like.
I’m talking about acknowledging the reality of their situation and the likely behaviors and reactions of each actor. Game theory & realpolitik. Something every nation should do.
they are actively targeting civilians
They claim it’s collateral damage, and you haven’t shared anything that disproves this.
Pointing out a group has high fertility rates = Nazi? Absurd.
Time dilation is verified by experiment, GPS wouldn’t work if you were correct.
It feels like most people operate on emotions rather than logic, it’s endlessly frustrating to me
exists solely for when the designers don’t want any characters or creatures to have access to resistance against the thing in question
Broach of shielding grants resistance to force damage
the aggressors … they’re killed way less than they’re killing, both before and after Oct.7,
Casualties inflicted is not necessarily indicative of aggression. I say that Palestine is the aggressor not because they have a higher body count, but because they literally started the conflict, both by instigating the earliest massacres against Jews in mandatory Palestine, making a one state solution impossible, by declaring war on Israel with their Arab allies in '48, and later trying it again unsuccessfully in the 6-day war. They also instigated this latest reprisal even though their attack wasn’t as effective as Israel’s response.
Just because Israel’s self-defense is way more effective than Palestine’s constant attacks against them does not mean they are the aggressors. They didn’t start this fight, but they consistently respond to attacks and threats quite effectively as they are on the winning side of asymmetrical combat.
they were the ones who stole the lands(, and are continuing to steal more of it),
Jews started out legally buying lands in Mandatory Palestine until they were massacred and had war waged on them on when they declared statehood. Any lands annexed is a result of this.
There’s a few solutions possible other than a two-state solution
Polling indicates Palestinians want intifada and a one-state solution where Jews are denied equal rights, and they outnumber Israelis. For obvious reasons letting those they are at war with choose their leadership is a non-starter.
the anger of palestinians is legitimate
No doubt, I wish their appreciation for realpolitik was as great as their anger, because that’s how one finds a path out of this situation; rationality and compromise and diplomacy and logic. Anger will not change their situation, it has led to things being this way.
Israel is asking for a lot and can’t offer much in exchange
They are asking for security and a return of hostages, and they have a lot of freedoms and land they can offer if Palestine is willing and able to deliver it. Because they are bargaining from a position of strength Israel probably won’t have to make as many diplomatic concessions for a viable peace. The alternative, of course, is that they remain belligerent, continue intafada, settlements continue and Palestine is eventually annexed entirely. Palestine should really be trying to make a viable peace lest they end up with nothing.
it should result at the very least in a huge boost for the ummah, something deemed worthwhile by all of them
If ummah were a factor here I suspect Egypt wouldn’t be keeping Rafah closed, they clearly care more about using them as pawns with claims to land than they do the lives of Gazans stuck there. While there is only one Jewish state there are many Arab/Islamic ones in the area and none of them seem willing to help Palestine, probably because those who did historically suffered for it with military losses, coups, and terrorist organizations operating within their borders.
our collective effort will be entirely done in order to give the whole planet Mars to countries claiming to be islamic.
This is the first time I’ve heard, “send Muslims to Mars,” pitched as a solution. Somehow I don’t think they’ll go for it.
Palestine is mostly kids, Gazans have a high fertility rate, they decided to have lots of kids in a war zone. Although tragic, it should be unsurprising that they end up being many/most collateral damage casualties. This terrible consequence for slaughtering Israeli civilians should have been totally predictable, yet only Israel seems to be blamed for the violence these children experience, not the ones murdering Israeli civilians while hiding among them.
I believe the idf claimed that the ambulance was in use by Hamas.
Israel was attacked by the government of Gaza, and they are counter attacking their infrastructure and their leadership, who hides among civilians. This is war. Civilians almost always suffer and die in war.
Israel has been very clear that they will attack Hamas targets no matter where they are, inside or outside the evacuation area. If they wanted to just kill all the Palestinians they could have by now but they haven’t. They built sophisticated AI to select their targets so that they can claim their targets are valid military ones.
I mean there’s a real legitimate case to be made that they need to select their military targets more carefully or that the amount of civilian collateral damages too high, and I feel like that all gets overlooked when instead It gets replaced with the ridiculous claim that israel is trying to genocide all the civilians, which is obviously wrong.(Israel is comprised of many of the same ethnic groups you claim they are genociding.)
Jerusalem, which is contested
Me either, unless it’s Khan.
Fascism always eats itself
I addressed elsewhere why calling Israel white supremacist and genocidal are not appropriate, but you’re just going to repeat the same shit over and over again because you think it’s shocking. I’m blocking you now because you’re clearly not here in good faith, you’re here to yell and scream and insult those who disagree. I hope you learn to be better one day
Israel would have acted like the genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialism state it has been since it’s creation.
Israel has never been genocidal, for obvious reasons. If wiping out Palestinians were their goal, they certainly could do it more effectively, IDF is often warning people about incoming attacks, and publishing justifications for attacks.
The reason Palestine lost land was because they declared war on Israel and lost, refused to concede, declared war again, lost, refused to concede, then continued terrorist attacks against them for the next 60 years.
But sure just call it colonialism or genocide or whatever fucking buzzwords you think will get public opinion to give a shit about this group that absolutely caused their misery by remaining uncompromising, violent, and poking the bear every chance they get.
Regarding the whiteness of Jews:
https://jpost.com/opinion/jews-are-not-white-race-and-identity-in-israel-and-the-us-opinion-685368
Significant percentages of Israelis are very non-white, but I know you’re just doing mental backflips trying to inappropriately conflate Israel with their old enemies, the Nazis.
Going ad hominem makes you seem like a petulant child
Pretend you are in charge of Israel, how would you have responded to the attack against your civilians? This was predictable, inevitable, and arguably the least bad choice.
It’s easier to make the case deaths of children are collateral damage with targeted bombs against military targets than with guns used against unarmed civilians at close range, or blindly fired rockets.
Perhaps. It’s unsurprising that Hamas wouldn’t release propaganda of such things. I watched a lot of the horrible footage from that day, it certainly didn’t give me the impression that they were showing restraint.
Then your moral compass evidently does not distinguish intent from effectiveness. There’s a lot more to it than body count, like who started this conflict, who provoked the latest escalation, and who the intended targets are. I blame Hamas for these deaths by provoking a predictable attack from a superior foe while hiding among Gazan children, I don’t blame Israel for using strategies that minimize their own losses even if it means more collateral damage in a nation they are at war with.