You know that bombing schools and hospitals is STILL a heinous war crime even IF (gigantic if) it’s true that Hamas is hiding under every single one of them like you genocide apologists keep claiming, right?
Both sides here 100% want to genocide the other. They will both continue to try to do so, they’re leadership has said exactly that. Is it just to blame Israel just for winning?
Massacring civilians to accomplish nothing except temporarily sating blood lust isn’t winning. Not when Hamas does it and not when Israeli forces do it.
Besides, it’s not like Hamas has anything near a thousandth of the military power that Israel does. As the stronger of the parties and the ones who make all the rules, they bear the majority of the responsibility and thus the majority of the blame.
Most things get worse before they get better. Once Palestine is gone, there won’t be a conflict anymore. At least not an Israel / Palestine conflict.
And yes, this is horrible. Palestine wants the same for Israel. It’s all horrible. There can’t be peace there, it’s impossible. There can only be a winner.
No. Even IF that’s true (again, enormous if), the war crime is definitely the bombing of civilians, not hiding from people who want to kill you. I’m not saying that the Hamas aren’t heinous terrorists, but that doesn’t excuse the wholesale slaughter of innocents.
Especially since it only INCREASES hostilities, leading to more civilian deaths on both sides of the border.
Um, you’re wrong, it’s known as Perfidy and is a violation of Protocol 1 Article 37 of the Geneva Convention
It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy. Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy. The following acts are examples of perfidy:
(a) The feigning of an intent to negotiate under a flag of truce or of a surrender;
(b) The feigning of an incapacitation by wounds or sickness;
(d) The feigning of protected status by the use of signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not Parties to the conflict.
This response is the equivalent of a child saying nuh uh and walking off. Also, no one said that it did excuse the war crimes committed by the IDF. The problem I have is that you’re clearly misrepresenting Hamas as innocent.
This response is the equivalent of a child saying nuh uh and walking off.
You want me to elaborate about how false what you’re saying is? Walking off rather than continuing to waste my time and effort on the likes of you sounds tempting, though.
Also, no one said that it did excuse the war crimes committed by the IDF
That’s not true. You heavily implied as much and the other apartheid defender flat out said so.
The problem I have is that you’re clearly misrepresenting Hamas as innocent.
I’m doing no such thing. I’m always clear about the fact that Hamas are heinous terrorists guilty of atrocities.
That doesn’t justify any of IDF’s atrocities like you’re pretending that you’re not implying, though.
Hiding isn’t a war crime. Trying to blend in with a civilian population while you’re an active combatant, however, is. Precisely because it makes strikes with mass civilian casualties a military necessity.
First of all, no it isn’t. Second of all, nobody’s forcing the IDF to go through with the bombings anyway, sacrificing thousands of civilians while gaining nothing but the potential deaths of a few replaceable terrorists.
Oddly enough it’s not a war crime to attack a military target that is using a civilian population as cover. The military action has to use the principle of proportionality to limit risks to civilians, but doesn’t ban the attack. Attacking such a site would only be a war crime if there is no valid military target.
The use of a civilian population as soft cover (as in not actively being human shields, but not getting out of the way) could be a war crime depending on the amount of obfuscation the hiding party is using. In the instance of Hamas they built their bases directly under hospitals so I’d say that meets the bar for war crimes.
Also, the current news is that Hamas is blocking evacuations from this region. So that moves it from soft human shields to forced human shields.
it’s not a war crime to attack a military target that is using a civilian population as cover
It absolutely 100% is.
The military action has to use the principle of proportionality
Which Israel doesn’t do either, not even close
Attacking such a site would only be a war crime if there is no valid military target.
Which we only have the word of a notoriously dishonest government that there always is
Also, the current news is that Hamas is blocking evacuations from this region. So that moves it from soft human shields to forced human shields.
You mean like when Israel told Palestinians to go somewhere and then bombed them as they complied?
You can try all the whataboutism you’d like to excuse the atrocities of the apartheid regime but, apart from the fact that the atrocities of Hamas doesn’t justify any of those of Israel, most of the time the IDF have done the same thing (including for example using human shields) or something even worse.
The Geneva Convention disagrees:
“Geneva Convention IV: Article 28 of the 1949 Geneva Convention IV provides: ‘The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.’”
“Additional Protocol I: Article 51(7) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I provides:
The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations”
Which Israel doesn’t do either, not even close
That’s not true, obviously Israel is using the principal of proportionality or else they would have just leveled the entire place. Whether this constitutes a war crime would be if their level of response was appropriate enough, that’s why people say it “may” constitute a war crime. The truth is that this is a subjective argument that would need to be determined in an international court of law to be certain of.
Which we only have the word of a notoriously dishonest government that there always is
You mean like when Israel told Palestinians to go somewhere and then bombed them as they complied?
Maybe you should actually check the news, Hamas leadership has been telling it’s people to stay and, while you don’t believe the IDF, they have satellite and surveillance footage of vehicles and barricades to block travel in Gaza. Also, reporters inside of Gaza are reporting that Hamas is shooting evacuating people.
You can try all the whataboutism you’d like to excuse the atrocities of the apartheid regime but, apart from the fact that the atrocities of Hamas doesn’t justify any of those of Israel, most of the time the IDF have done the same thing (including for example using human shields) or something even worse.
I’ve not tried to excuse any atrocities, I’m clearly pointing out that the term “War Crime” has a specific meaning of which you have twice incorrectly used. Throughout our discussions I have used a number of reasonable sources and references. It funny you accuse me of an argument I haven’t made and for using whataboutisms, but the only whataboutisms have come from your own post. I don’t like what the IDF is doing either, but you can’t call things war crimes that would literally take a prolonged international league case to determine (principle of proportionality). Likewise when something is very clearly defined as a war crime, you can’t say that it isn’t (perfidy). Also, it’s a really poor argument to say that sources (albeit biased) are illegitimate because they came from Israel (I showed that an outside entity and the Palestinian Health Ministry backed up the IDFs claims a decade earlier).
Aaand we’ve reached the point where you repeat bullshit I’ve already refuted and insist that two war crimes would make a justified military action. We’re done here, genocide apologist.
You know that bombing schools and hospitals is STILL a heinous war crime even IF (gigantic if) it’s true that Hamas is hiding under every single one of them like you genocide apologists keep claiming, right?
Both sides here 100% want to genocide the other. They will both continue to try to do so, they’re leadership has said exactly that. Is it just to blame Israel just for winning?
Massacring civilians to accomplish nothing except temporarily sating blood lust isn’t winning. Not when Hamas does it and not when Israeli forces do it.
Besides, it’s not like Hamas has anything near a thousandth of the military power that Israel does. As the stronger of the parties and the ones who make all the rules, they bear the majority of the responsibility and thus the majority of the blame.
They are taking that responsibility, and using it to ensure a permanent end to the conflict. It’s the same thing Palestine would do if they could.
If you truly believe that, I have oceanfront property in Lichtenstein to sell you 🙄
They’re at least doing their best.
It’s adorable that you think so but no, they’re not. They’re making everything worse.
Most things get worse before they get better. Once Palestine is gone, there won’t be a conflict anymore. At least not an Israel / Palestine conflict.
And yes, this is horrible. Palestine wants the same for Israel. It’s all horrible. There can’t be peace there, it’s impossible. There can only be a winner.
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The war crime is hiding there in the first place.
No. Even IF that’s true (again, enormous if), the war crime is definitely the bombing of civilians, not hiding from people who want to kill you. I’m not saying that the Hamas aren’t heinous terrorists, but that doesn’t excuse the wholesale slaughter of innocents.
Especially since it only INCREASES hostilities, leading to more civilian deaths on both sides of the border.
Um, you’re wrong, it’s known as Perfidy and is a violation of Protocol 1 Article 37 of the Geneva Convention
That’s not what they’re doing, though. And even if they were, that would still NOT excuse the war crimes of the IDF.
This response is the equivalent of a child saying nuh uh and walking off. Also, no one said that it did excuse the war crimes committed by the IDF. The problem I have is that you’re clearly misrepresenting Hamas as innocent.
You want me to elaborate about how false what you’re saying is? Walking off rather than continuing to waste my time and effort on the likes of you sounds tempting, though.
That’s not true. You heavily implied as much and the other apartheid defender flat out said so.
I’m doing no such thing. I’m always clear about the fact that Hamas are heinous terrorists guilty of atrocities.
That doesn’t justify any of IDF’s atrocities like you’re pretending that you’re not implying, though.
Hiding isn’t a war crime. Trying to blend in with a civilian population while you’re an active combatant, however, is. Precisely because it makes strikes with mass civilian casualties a military necessity.
First of all, no it isn’t. Second of all, nobody’s forcing the IDF to go through with the bombings anyway, sacrificing thousands of civilians while gaining nothing but the potential deaths of a few replaceable terrorists.
Oddly enough it’s not a war crime to attack a military target that is using a civilian population as cover. The military action has to use the principle of proportionality to limit risks to civilians, but doesn’t ban the attack. Attacking such a site would only be a war crime if there is no valid military target.
The use of a civilian population as soft cover (as in not actively being human shields, but not getting out of the way) could be a war crime depending on the amount of obfuscation the hiding party is using. In the instance of Hamas they built their bases directly under hospitals so I’d say that meets the bar for war crimes.
Also, the current news is that Hamas is blocking evacuations from this region. So that moves it from soft human shields to forced human shields.
It absolutely 100% is.
Which Israel doesn’t do either, not even close
Which we only have the word of a notoriously dishonest government that there always is
You mean like when Israel told Palestinians to go somewhere and then bombed them as they complied?
You can try all the whataboutism you’d like to excuse the atrocities of the apartheid regime but, apart from the fact that the atrocities of Hamas doesn’t justify any of those of Israel, most of the time the IDF have done the same thing (including for example using human shields) or something even worse.
The Geneva Convention disagrees: “Geneva Convention IV: Article 28 of the 1949 Geneva Convention IV provides: ‘The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.’”
“Additional Protocol I: Article 51(7) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I provides: The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations”
That’s not true, obviously Israel is using the principal of proportionality or else they would have just leveled the entire place. Whether this constitutes a war crime would be if their level of response was appropriate enough, that’s why people say it “may” constitute a war crime. The truth is that this is a subjective argument that would need to be determined in an international court of law to be certain of.
Amnesty International reported the same in 2014 (https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/) and the Palestinian Health Ministry in 2009 (www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3668018,00.html).
Maybe you should actually check the news, Hamas leadership has been telling it’s people to stay and, while you don’t believe the IDF, they have satellite and surveillance footage of vehicles and barricades to block travel in Gaza. Also, reporters inside of Gaza are reporting that Hamas is shooting evacuating people.
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/ryjyna7qa
I’ve not tried to excuse any atrocities, I’m clearly pointing out that the term “War Crime” has a specific meaning of which you have twice incorrectly used. Throughout our discussions I have used a number of reasonable sources and references. It funny you accuse me of an argument I haven’t made and for using whataboutisms, but the only whataboutisms have come from your own post. I don’t like what the IDF is doing either, but you can’t call things war crimes that would literally take a prolonged international league case to determine (principle of proportionality). Likewise when something is very clearly defined as a war crime, you can’t say that it isn’t (perfidy). Also, it’s a really poor argument to say that sources (albeit biased) are illegitimate because they came from Israel (I showed that an outside entity and the Palestinian Health Ministry backed up the IDFs claims a decade earlier).
Aaand we’ve reached the point where you repeat bullshit I’ve already refuted and insist that two war crimes would make a justified military action. We’re done here, genocide apologist.
Two things can be war crimes.