What’s up with this straight up pro-china and pro-russia stuff on Lemmy lately?

It’s not even praising the people of China and Russia, but rather their gov directly.

Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.

Is this some kind of organized disinformation campaign?

  • bobzer@lemmy.zip
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    2 days ago

    I do listen to Ukrainians

    Except when they democratically decide on closer ties with the EU?

    I want to focus on your belief that NATO started this war and that Russia is somehow defending itself because it’s inherently contradictory. It requires you to believe the following:

    1. The Ukrainian Parliament under Yanukovych was not democratic so couldn’t ratify the trade agreement, but Yanukovych was.
    2. The Maidan protests were staged by nearly 800,000 NATO drones, but the much smaller Donetsk separatist movement was legitimate and wasn’t a Russian imperialist front.

    Can you speak more to those ideas?

    • humanspiral@lemmy.ca
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      21 hours ago

      The Ukrainian Parliament under Yanukovych was not democratic so couldn’t ratify the trade agreement

      It was a fast moving process. Unclear when IMF interference demands for austerity were known. Russia did make a much better offer than EU, and Yanukovych was right to prefer it.

      The Maidan protests were staged by nearly 800,000 NATO drones

      While there is an obvious pull among the young to get western values, CIA/US state propaganda operations to fabricate that opinion, was done purely for nazification and warmongering purposes. The idiocy of the public makes them resort to their programing. Not informed pragmatic study of all alternatives.

      the much smaller Donetsk separatist movement was legitimate and wasn’t a Russian imperialist front.

      The nazi rulership, installed by US, immediately massacred opposition in Odessa, removed Russian language rights, and wanted to seize Crimean port out of Russian lease. Ukrainian naziism has become the new western liberal values, but most people don’t like nazis, and especially not their “subhuman labelled” targets for extermination.

      Your previous post was dishonest as well.

      • bobzer@lemmy.zip
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        1 day ago

        Unclear when IMF interference demands for austerity were known.

        I think you’re conflating two separate issues. The IMF was not involved in trade talks between the EU and Ukraine. It was when Ukraine was seeking loans but Yanukovych didn’t reject to ratify the EU bill because of the IMF.

        CIA/US state propaganda operations to fabricate that opinion, was done purely for nazification and warmongering purposes

        To what end goal?

        Is it so hard to believe that given the choice between closer ties to the EU or a gay hating, poverty stricken state run by robber barons and oligarchs, Ukrainians might have preferred the EU?

        The idiocy of the public makes them resort to their programing.

        This isn’t a fair argument, I could say the same thing about you, and you could say the same about me. How can we find truth when we both believe the other is simply regurgitating programming from some shadowy propaganda source.

        I’ll ask this: Do you feel yourself entrenched in these views or are you actually open to changing them through discussion?

        immediately massacred opposition in Odessa,

        This didn’t happen though.

        removed Russian language rights

        This also didn’t happen.

          • bobzer@lemmy.zip
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            4 hours ago

            Your first link is a dubious site that sources itself to support it’s argument.

            As for the language law. It could have been handled better but the impact was overblown by Russian propaganda.

            Also you ask Russian imperialism to be viewed in the context of NATO provocation. Why is it not also fair then to view the language bill as a response to blatant Russian aggression?

        • Diva (she/her)@lemmy.ml
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          23 hours ago

          immediately massacred opposition in Odessa,

          This didn’t happen though.

          dozens of people died and nobody was prosecuted, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

          removed Russian language rights

          This also didn’t happen.

          this feels like you’re gaslighting, they made Ukrainian mandatory to use in public life, the only exceptions given were for EU languages and English. Russian, Belarusian and Yiddish did not get those exceptions.

        • humanspiral@lemmy.ca
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          21 hours ago

          It was when Ukraine was seeking loans but Yanukovych didn’t reject to ratify the EU bill because of the IMF.

          Yes he was delaying ratification over obvious anger, and poor electoral math, surrounding austerity demands.

          between closer ties to the EU or a gay hating, poverty stricken state run by robber barons and oligarchs, Ukrainians might have preferred the EU?

          Yes. Manufacturing liberalism is easy because liberal freedoms are humanist. Good and smart people can want liberalism and trade diversification. Does the US empire spend $5B on an operation to increase but fucking, and enabling you to marry your buttfucker? No. The CIA creates division in nations purely to diminish enemies it needs as a demonic evil entity that needs enemies to justify budget, and needs corrupt CIA allegiant puppetry everywhere for championing US oligarchy dominance. Ukraine nazification and war path to current “diminish Russia to the last Ukrainian policy” was set with the 2014 coup.

          I am entrenched in the pure demonic evil of US empire propaganda, and the evil in the lost souls who tolerate, accept and normalize its demonism. More importantly, your delusional propaganda denials does not impact Russia, and Russians, understanding of reality and understanding its imperative defense from demonic empire actions.

          • bobzer@lemmy.zip
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            4 hours ago

            enabling you to marry your buttfucker

            So you’re just blatantly homophobic?

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      2 days ago

      NATO has been pressing eastward despite making agreements with Russia that it would not. From the beginning, NATO was formed as an anti-communist alliance, and even after the Soviet Union fell it has been a key tool in encircling Russia to get them to open up their markets to foreign plunder, a tried and true strategy used elsewhere.

      Yanukovych was correct in not pursuing the western requirement of austerity politics and becoming a puppet of western countries. NATO used this as an opportunity to overthrow Yanukovych and install a far-right Banderite regime. When the Donbass region wanted to secede, Kiev responded with ethnic repression in the form of language suppression and outright shelling, shelling which accelerated in the weeks leading up to Russian invasion.

      With a far-right regime that is violently Russophobic and is cozying up to the number 1 anti-Russian millitary alliance in the world right on their borders, Russia decided to invade when diplomacy fell through. Russia does not give a shit about extraction from Ukraine. They are not in this for the plunder. Russia purely wants Ukraine to promise NATO neutrality, and stop the ethnic cleansing in Donetsk and Luhansk.

      This is the bog-standard communist take. Orgs like The Party for Socialism and Liberation have released statements, same as FRSO’s statement. You are unfamiliar with communism yet are trying to use it against itself.

      • bobzer@lemmy.zip
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        2 days ago

        Did you respond to the correct post? This isn’t relevant to what I asked.

          • bobzer@lemmy.zip
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            1 day ago

            You didn’t answer the question.

            You believe Maidan was orchestrated by NATO without evidence but without any critical thought believe the separatist movements are real.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              1 day ago

              Davel pretty much covered it. Part of the Maidan coup was legitimate, but the west took advantage of it and steered it towards its own interests. The seperatist movements were sparked by ethnic suppression and the coup against the president they supported.

              • bobzer@lemmy.zip
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                4 hours ago

                Let’s assume you’re correct about US interference in Maidan.

                Why do you believe that is an excuse for war, but Russian interference in the Ukrainian state (to the point that their president was a Russian puppet), was acceptable?

                • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]@hexbear.net
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                  3 hours ago

                  Not Cowbee, but I want to push back on some more of your what you are trying to imply.

                  Why do you believe that is an excuse for war

                  The rest of the world has every right to defend itself against NATO, including when NATO tries to put troops and weapons near highly populated non-NATO-controlled areas, especially when NATO conducts terror attacks.

                  but Russian interference in the Ukrainian state (to the point that their president was a Russian puppet), was acceptable?

                  Firstly, what is your evidence for this Russian interference to the point that the president was a Russian puppet?
                  Secondly, this is at the very least less bad than NATO’s interference and subjugation of Ukraine at least on the basis of NATO being by far the most evil polity in the world, complete with conduction of at least one current genocide. (EDIT: And you are yet to present an alternative course of action for Russia, despite being repeatedly prompted to, and despite the fact that your claims have no basis if there wasn’t any other serious option for Russia.)

            • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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              The Maidan coup is precisely why separatist movements came to be of any significance in the first place.

              The Maidan protests were staged by nearly 800,000 NATO drones

              The Maidan massacre was a false flag attack by fascist Banderite snipers with US support. The protests were partly real and partly astroturfed: they were funded & advised by the US/UK in the interest of regime change. Previously.

              Here’s how it works: we look for the sorest division/tension within the country we want to regime change, and we take advantage of it and inflame it, because that’s the easiest and most effective way of getting the regime change and/or Balkanization we want. It’s what we did in Afghanistan in the 1980s, and we’ve been reusing the playbook ever since.


              In case you don’t recognize this face, it’s bin Laden.

              FAIR: Forgotten Coverage of Afghan ‘Freedom Fighters’

              But the U.S. government and the American press have not always opposed Afghan extremists. During the 1980s, the Mujahiddin guerrilla groups battling Soviet occupation had key features in common with the Taliban. In many ways, the Mujahiddin groups acted as an incubator for the later rise of the Taliban in the 1990s.

              Despite CIA denials of any direct Agency support for Bin Laden’s activities, a considerable body of circumstantial evidence suggests the contrary. During the 1980s, Bin Laden’s activities in Afghanistan closely paralleled those of the CIA. Bin Laden held accounts in the Bank for Credit and Commerce International (BCCI), the bank the CIA used to finance its own covert actions. Bin Laden worked especially closely with Hekmatyar—the CIA’s favored Mujahiddin commander. In 1989, the U.S. shipped high-powered sniper rifles to a Mujahiddin faction that included bin Laden, according to a former bin Laden aide.

              The blueprint of regime change operations - How regime change happens in the 21st century with your consent

              [H]ere’s the step-by-step process summarized:

              1. A strategic country is selected as a target.
              2. Stories start being fed to the media about human rights abuses or just concerning developments (lack of democracy, dwindling economy, etc).
              3. To help lay the basis, the government may make official reports the media can then use. They might also use humanitarian NGOs (Amnesty, HRW…) or outright CIA outfits (World Uyghur Congress, Radio Free Europe…).
              4. Stories start coming out more and more often. The volume of coverage regarding the target country becomes much bigger than before the campaign.
              5. At the same time, groups and individuals in the target country, that have been funded by the imperialist country, are being put in the spotlight. They have been groomed for years, laying somewhat dormant until it’s time to activate them.
              6. Stories about these groups call them champions of democracy, freedom fighters, etc. A clear limit is drawn: they are good people, and the government that’s preventing them from achieving their policies are the bad guys. This is the basis of a color revolution.
              7. Slowly, public opinion starts to shift. We don’t necessarily act on this opinion yet though, we plant the seeds to make later consent easier. Each seed makes the next one easier to plant and grow.
              8. The imperialist country continues the campaign but also starts small, probing actions to see what it can get away with. It might enact sanctions or query the UN for intervention. It will also call these acts “moral” and underline that they are meant to sanction the country until it becomes a democracy again, further digging the good vs. evil line.
              9. Meanwhile, everything the target country does to prove its innocence and lawful conduct is not published or gets blocked (e.g. request for a UN delegation visit). Their point of view is never printed in the media or if it is, only when they can spin it in a good way.
              10. Slowly, regime change is brought up. Subconsciously at first (e.g. “China would be free if it wasn’t for the communist party”, which implies destroying it and the system it built). Later, it can be more overt (e.g. Iran).
              11. Finally, consent has been manufactured and public opinion has completely shifted on the target country. People come to see invasion as the only solution, and they will happily support it once it happens. It may not happen for several years though, as material reasons might not make invasion possible. Sometimes, a color revolution (which is mostly carried by nationals of the country in question but funded and trained by the imperialist country) is the best thing we can do.

               
              If the operation succeeds:

              1. If the operation succeeds, a pro-US dictator will be ‘elected’ or seize power. The election will be called fair and democratic, as was the case in Ukraine 2014. This president will be paraded around in the West and become a media figure that everyone comes to know. This is what happened to Zelensky, but also to Pinochet in his time and Juan Guaido.
              2. Inside the country, everything gets privatized and sold to US and European companies under the directives of the dictator. This is rarely talked about or if it is, it’s presented as banal — e.g., “Ford to open factory in Argentina”. Quality of life plummets, actual humanitarian crises start, etc.
              3. The media still publishes stories on the country, but always in a good light, and not as many as during the operation. They might sometimes call to unrest in the country but always as a distant, abstract phenomenon.
              4. As long as the dictator plays by our rules, the country keeps being talked about positively. As soon as he starts to become too independent, we will use the chaotic post-coup situation to repeat the process with a new President.

              It’s what we did to China in the late 1980s in Beijing and again recently in Xinjiang.