• mlg@lemmy.world
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    6 hours ago

    Alienates voter base by refusing to meet constituent demands or running a proper primary

    “It must be these damn 3rd party voters, that’s why we lost every single swing state”

  • Grazed@lemmy.world
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    15 hours ago

    I feel sorry for Americans. The best of the 2 viable parties is a party keen on supplying a genocide, and somehow if you vote 3rd party you’re more responsible than said genocide suppliers, even worse republicans, and non-voters. That’s wild.

    The uncomfortable reality is that you aren’t gonna solve your country’s problems in the voting booths. Good luck to you, genuinely.

    • anarchiddy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      14 hours ago

      The uncomfortable reality is that you aren’t gonna solve your country’s problems in the voting booths

      Until the majority of liberals in our country realize this, it’s doubtful our problems will be solved at all

    • Test_Tickles@lemmy.world
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      11 hours ago

      3rd party voters aren’t worse non voters, and definitely are not worse than maga voters. If you honestly couldn’t stomach voting for the Dems, that’s your right and your choice. If you have accepted the consequences of your actions, then I can disagree with you but I don’t hate you. The only ones worse than maga are the public masterbators who try to pretend like the Democrats made them do it, or how they were doing something noble, or teaching the Dems a lesson.
      I am not the type to kink shame people, but I really don’t want to be part of whatever weird masochistic justice warrior public flagellation shit they are trying to get off to. I didn’t and I don’t consent, so they can fuck right off that shit.

      • Spawn7586@lemmy.world
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        6 hours ago

        I mean, from an outsider point of view, it looks like people who voted a 3rd party voted for what they believed. People who voted dems voted against what they believed trying to win and then are projecting some “justice warrior” idea onto who voted what they actually wanted to vote. I rarely see someone saying they voted 3rd party, but I often see it used as a scorn by dems… I doubt people would brag about it since it basically makes people react like you: “I don’t hate you” proceeds to insult an imaginary justice warrior that is supposedly voting a 3rd party lol

        • Test_Tickles@lemmy.world
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          1 hour ago

          Your lack of observation or reading comprehension doesn’t negate the validity of what many of us saw and experienced, nor does reduce how gross and weird it was/is.
          Up until a couple weeks ago, I would see 3-4 posts a day were someone would try to highjack a popular post by posting ragebate aimed at Dems. Often in posts about whatever stupid shit Trump was currently doing at that moment. Or they would start their own post with something obviously intended to get people to respond. After they got someone hooked, they would pick a nonsenseical position, usually claiming that they voted 3rd party because they were too upset with the how they were trying to save the Palestinians from the murderous Dems.
          Was it a bunch of people, one or two people with multiple accounts, or maybe a group a acting in concert, I don’t know. But no matter who it was, it soon became obvious that they weren’t here to argue their position or try to change minds, they were just here to argue and inflame. They were obviously looking for to make people angry and get yelled at. At first it seemed like the normal trolls, but then it began to be obvious that it wasn’t about just fucking with people for amusement, it was about achieving something. It was about hitting some goal that satisfied them and then they would start over again in some other post.
          I am not happy with 3rd party voters, and I strongly disagree with any arguments that they had any affect other than helping Trump win. But they put in the effort, and did their civic duty. But you are correct, those types of people wouldn’t be in here bragging about being fooled, or how stupid they are. I could believe at first that they were trying alleviate some shame or guilt, but no… The ones that are gross and weird about, the ones still occasionally trying to start shit, those are the ones we all hate more than even the maga.

  • Artyom@lemm.ee
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    1 day ago

    Wow, all those third-party voters are really grumpy in these comments.

    • Sprawl@lemmy.world
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      11 hours ago

      They need to understand that their logic is flawed. If they won’t, they will not make the right choice anyhow.

      🤷

    • DarkFuture@lemmy.world
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      16 hours ago

      Well. Facts didn’t work. Pleading with them didn’t work. Now we all have to suffer because of their stupidity.

      Yeah, I’m moving on to calling them fucking idiots.

      I’ve spent countless hours trying to logically explain basic concepts to conservatives and 3rd party voters, some of whom are my actual friends and family, so I treat them with respect when I speak to them.

      Trust me when I say you are NOT going to convert them.

      The only hope is catching people with logic and facts when they’re young and first developing their political opinions.

      Our economy is now tanking because of these fools. Yet another economic crisis in my lifetime. Fuck them. I’m sick of their pathetic, stupid shit.

      • orcrist@lemm.ee
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        9 hours ago

        Did you try fielding a decent candidate? No. You brought pro genocide candidates. There’s no logic to fix that, my friend. The DNC and RNC defend their funders, and third party voters understand this.

        • skisnow@lemmy.ca
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          8 hours ago

          Boggles my mind how all these people desperately trying to whip everyone into supporting the two-party system, just assume that third-party voters and non-voters automatically owe their vote to their party. The sheer vanity and arrogance of it.

      • njm1314@lemmy.world
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        13 hours ago

        https://factcheck.afp.com/doc.afp.com.36LT4WK

        Third-Party votes were not the balance of this election. That is complete and utter lie on your part. Even if every single Third Party voter voted for Harris she would not have had enough votes to win. Not that Libertarians were going to go for her in any case.

      • anarchiddy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        14 hours ago

        Our economy is now tanking because of these fools

        Funny how these accusations were relatively absent for the last three months while visa and green card holders were shipped off to labor camps in El Salvador, but as soon as Trump does some shit to tank the economy, that’s when the knives come out

        Liberals will defend the same problematic capital structures as republicans - change my mind.

        • Donkter@lemmy.world
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          13 hours ago

          So by that logic, third party voters were fine with visa and green card holders being shipped out in the same way they’re ok with tariffs making the U.S. the enemy of the world except for “liberals” complaining about their poor choice and making them feel bad.

          Wasn’t much of a concern when voting though.

  • Bristingr@lemm.ee
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    1 day ago

    I’m not going to blame the 3rd party voters. At least they voted.

    Put your anger towards those who couldn’t even be bothered to do so.

    • DarkFuture@lemmy.world
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      16 hours ago

      How about both?

      Yeah, non-voters are the dumbest of the dumb. Period.

      But if you voted 3rd party in a PRESIDENTIAL election, you’re a goddamn idiot.

      • Sprawl@lemmy.world
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        11 hours ago

        It basically means they don’t understand the rules of the game. If they are willing to learn, cool, but many are not.

      • Bristingr@lemm.ee
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        11 hours ago

        No? My vote for President literally does not matter in California. I voted for Harris because Fuck Trump, but my vote doesn’t mean shit in this state. I literally have more value voting 3rd party than I do for either major candidate because of how the Federal Election Funding requirements work for 3rd parties.

    • witten@lemmy.world
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      1 day ago

      Put your anger towards those who couldn’t even be bothered to do so.

      Why? The election was won and lost in swing states, and voter turnout in swing states was roughly the same in 2024 and 2020.

    • StinkySocialist@lemmy.ml
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      1 day ago

      3rd party voter here. Let’s stop hating fellow poors and collectively hate the rich and powerful who are really responsible

      • DarkFuture@lemmy.world
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        16 hours ago

        How about you put on your thinking cap and understand why voting 3rd party in a presidential election is fucking pointless?

          • 13igTyme@lemmy.world
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            10 hours ago

            I would love to hear an explanation from you as to why voting in a presidential election is pointless.

            • superniceperson@sh.itjust.works
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              9 hours ago

              Sure thing, all progress that has been made in terms of rights in the US has happened without voting. Through demands and violence are rights won and maintained; not electoralism which has only cost us rights over time

  • anarchiddy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    2 days ago

    Are we really still doing this?

    Honestly it seems like liberals hate their own base more than the reactionaries they are supposedly the opposition to

    Actually that tracks, since most of the DNC has been flirting with reactionary commentators and billionaires while actively criticizing the one part of their party actually building momentum

      • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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        1 day ago

        It’s just good praxis when you divide the electorate and usher in a fascist regime that will kill millions, but ‘divisive’ when you criticize that?

          • disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world
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            1 day ago

            Too bad you didn’t participate when a vote was all that was needed. It’s going to take a lot more than that now.

          • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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            1 day ago

            “Voting isn’t enough!” mfers doing nothing that substantiates change now that fascism is literally in the driver’s seat.

            Thanks. Me and everyone else who’s going to fucking die under this administration thank you for your immeasurable left purity.

        • disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world
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          1 day ago

          So exactly what amount of criticism will overthrow a fascist regime? I can say with certainty that more votes would have prevented one from taking over.

          • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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            1 day ago

            Considering that the core message of “The LIBS are too IMPURE to be worth allying with, even to stop fascism!”, it may be that this attitude has wider implications than just in the last election. Maybe cultivating fascist-enabling attitudes has fascist-enabling consequences?

            No, of course not. How silly of me. It’s just the one time, the 2024 election, wherein fascist-enabling attitudes had fascist-enabling consequences. Next time it’ll be fine.

            The attitude criticized here is the same attitude that would’ve decried the Sovs and Western Allies teaming up to fight the literal fucking Nazis.

              • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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                1 day ago

                Red fascist apologia, how surprising. But who cares about Polish or Baltic sovereignty? You have imperialism ‘power politics’ to play defense for, right?

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              Who said it was just the one time? Welcome to FPTP elections. We get two choices, neither is ideal. You vote for the lesser of two evils, or you accept the greater to lead the nation. It’s a horrible system, but you’re smart enough to know how it works.

              The attitude here is quite literally the opposite. Your arrogance is deporting innocent people to El Salvador. Your pride is taking food and medicine from the needy. Your self-righteousness is building a billionaire resort in Gaza.

              • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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                1 day ago

                … are we talking past each other? Because right now, it sounds like you’re making the same point I am.

                • disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world
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                  1 day ago

                  My bad. I just reread the thread and it seems you’re right. I really should get some coffee before I start typing. Lol

  • bdonvr@thelemmy.club
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    2 days ago

    I swear to God it’s the same 5 accounts on Lemmy posting this horse-shit take.

    Like - all the third party voters combined would not have kept Trump out of office. Give it up. It’s nonsense and frankly pretty sad.

    • 13igTyme@lemmy.world
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      10 hours ago

      It’s also a false statement.

      The final numbers show Trump with 2.3 million more votes. 77.3 million (49.8%) vs 75 million (48.3%) of the total vote. Third part candidates, including write-ins, were 2.13% of the vote. 2.97 million people voted third party or write in. This is also not counting the 90 million that didn’t vote but where registered.

      If every single third party voter voted Harris, she would have won.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidential_election

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_and_independent_candidates_for_the_2024_United_States_presidential_election

      • bdonvr@thelemmy.club
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        That’s… Not how US elections work. Otherwise Hillary would’ve won 2016

        Looking at the state results it doesn’t appear that any state would’ve flipped blue if all third party voters excluding Robert Kennedy and Oliveros (libertarian) voters because they definitely would not have gone Harris went Harris. Even if you count the right wing 3rd party ones she only would’ve won 2 more states and still lost.

        If we used the popular vote I definitely would’ve voted Harris, but as it is Trump was going to win my state by huge margins so I just voted who I really wanted knowing it made no difference. In races other than president I went Dem.

      • bdonvr@thelemmy.club
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        3 hours ago

        No, they really would not have.

        At best if you generously count right wing third party voters too (like Robert Kennedy voters) she would’ve won two more states but that would not have won her the election.

    • DarkFuture@lemmy.world
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      16 hours ago

      all the third party voters combined would not have kept Trump out of office.

      THEY DIDN’T FUCKING KNOW THAT WHEN THEY VOTED!!!

    • Doom@ttrpg.network
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      2 days ago

      I sorta disagree.

      I think the campaign used to push people third party encouraged others to just not vote.

      • bdonvr@thelemmy.club
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        2 days ago

        Even IF that’s true it’s still terrible. What do you think? You’re gonna chastise people into agreeing with you? Is some “holier-than-though” attitude gonna do it?

        Really just seems like a circlejerk

        • DarkFuture@lemmy.world
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          15 hours ago

          What do you think? You’re gonna chastise people into agreeing with you?

          If someone’s dumb enough to vote 3rd party in a PRESIDENTIAL election then there’s no getting them to agree with common sense. The point is to call their dipshittery out with logic so that young people who are forming their opinions see how stupid they are and avoid also being that stupid.

        • Doom@ttrpg.network
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          1 day ago

          No I’m just saying people who think protest voting or throwing your vote away is ever smart, this is proof it isn’t.

          This really entirely could’ve been avoided and this was one of the steps in a stairwell of bullshit that could’ve stopped it all

          • saltesc@lemmy.world
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            13 hours ago

            The fundamental idea of democracy is that you have your say. Even if the outcome isn’t your’s, your vote showed how much people wanted the other things, this influencing the group that got it.

            Your thinking anti-democratically. You are chastising individual voices in the system for not doing what you wanted for your outcome. That’s literally how authoritarianism starts. Check yourself.

            • Doom@ttrpg.network
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              10 hours ago

              Lol no it absolutely isn’t.

              The fundamental aspect of democracy isn’t just that you get a say, it’s that I get to say your say is stupid especially if I can show reasons why it’s dumb

              Voting against your own interest, choosing not to represent yourself and opting to “punish” your representatives by not voting for them isn’t smart and there is proof in the pudding.

              Check yourself, running around like you’re the democracy police. Please

        • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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          1 day ago

          Even IF that’s true it’s still terrible. What do you think? You’re gonna chastise people into agreeing with you?

          Reminding everyone that being a Nazi supporter is, in fact, bad, is good practice. That exact mindset of “Never be mean to anyone who supports fascism 🥺” is half the fucking reason that fascism got mainstreamed in this country. People sitting on the fence are more likely to shy away from something that is thoroughly condemned than something that gets a “Well, your support of shipping undesirables to death camps is a Respectable Position, let’s agree to disagree 😊”

          • bdonvr@thelemmy.club
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            1 day ago

            I’m talking about people who otherwise mostly agree with you can we not be obtuse?

            • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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              If someone who “Mostly agrees” with me thinks “Let fascism win” is a viable course of action because of some fucking accelerationist fantasy, they are, in practical terms, not really much less of an enemy than people who mostly disagree with me.

              Fuck man, millions are projected to die just from USAID’s defunding. Thousands more will die in Ukraine and Palestine from the Trump admin’s fuckery. They’re setting up concentration camps and illegally (yes, illegal even under the rather permissive anti-immigration laws of the US as they stand now) deporting people to black sites in foreign countries and then saying they can’t bring them back, even if it is a mistake. When Medicaid expansion is rolled back, as looks pretty fucking possible, I, personally, will be living life on a very brief timer.

              People who sat back and smugly said “Well, both sides are the same, I’m going to work against the anti-fascist candidate” are no allies of anything except fascism, regardless of how left-wing they profess to be or how many individual issues they agree with me on.

            • Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works
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              No they can’t not be obtuse, during the election this user and disguyovahere both were going on and on about how the left is the problem for criticizing the dems for their innmuerable terrible decisions that got us here. But no, it’s the voters fault, many of us whom have grittered their teeth and voted Dem for years as they continued to be ineffectual and handed our country to the fucking fascists

              • DarkFuture@lemmy.world
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                15 hours ago

                voted Dem for years as they continued to be ineffectual and handed our country to the fucking fascists

                1. If you bothered to actually pay attention and do things like look up the voting history of both parties. Bills that they’ve passed. Then you’d be aware that the Democrat party is NOWHERE NEAR as ineffectual as the Republican party. To call Dems ineffectual when we’re in the midst of what we’re in right now, when mere months ago we had stability, professionalism, and a strong economy under the Dems, is simply disingenuous.

                2. No one but American voters handed our country to fucking fascists. It’s up to American voters to responsibly inform themselves and vote responsibly. Blaming Dems for the failure of American voters is also disingenuous.

                • Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works
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                  15 hours ago
                  1. I’m certainly no republican lmfao but to say America was stable and great under Biden is a bit silly, obviously it’s not the same level as now because Trump is a lunatic, you’re just comparing Republicans vs Democrats, whereas I’m specifically saying the democrats already don’t do nearly enough.

                  2. I mean, more stayed home then voted as per usual, they were literally going against Trump and managed to lose. Do you wonder why they aren’t winning over voters? It’s because they aren’t doing enough to move the needle in a positive direction, so people become disillusioned, we need a strong progressive leader like Bernie who is more willing to fight against the established ghouls in the democratic party who are just as corrupt as the Republicans.

                  I don’t know what more I can say then we can have better if the democrats actually wanted to fight for the things they campaigned on instead of a majority of them doing the bare minimum to stay elected and keep getting that lobbyist cash.

    • kofe@lemmy.world
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      1 day ago

      Yeah, I’m pretty set on blaming anyone that voted for Trump. I do get annoyed by people that voted third party or just not at all, but its not their fault by any means. Even though the latter combined would have made a difference, it was republican states that withheld hundreds of thousands from the ability to vote, and that mixed with people that voted for the Republicans cutting voting rights are the source of the problem.

  • knightly the Sneptaur@pawb.social
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    2 days ago

    Pointless statements from liberals who are too busy trying to find someone to blame to do anything useful about the galloping fascism in their midst.

    • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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      Luckily the millions of protest nonvoters are taking action to stop this fucked situation.

      Right?

      Oh, no, wait, people like me are fucked because it was never anything other than posing for purity points with your online friends.

      And if we have actual elections in 2028, none of you will learn a goddamn thing.

      The blood of millions doesn’t matter a single goddamn whit to any of you so long as you can talk about LIBS BAD.

      • knightly the Sneptaur@pawb.social
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        1 day ago

        I’m less worried about the voters than the party that tries to appeal to its opposition rather than its own base. The Democrats deliberately threw the election again, imo.

    • eldavi@lemmy.ml
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      2 days ago

      It’s wild that they’re angry at people for not wanting to be complicit w a genocide rather than the people who forced us to choose between 2 genociders or even the genociders themselves.

      • corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca
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        Yeah. its like there were two choices and everything that has happened so far was predicted over and over and STILL people voted for a lotto win vs stopping the worst case. Given the international meddling, it makes the clueless gits more hapless.

        • eldavi@lemmy.ml
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          there were more than two choices and everyone predicted that repeatedly choosing the lesser evil will lead to this and here we are.

            • eldavi@lemmy.ml
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              1 day ago

              there are third parties and independents and mexico & sheinbaum prove are viable once you stop drinking the 2-party kool aide

              • HelixDab2@lemm.ee
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                Mexico is not a purely FPTP system; there are elements of ranked choice at the national level for their legislature. That makes it possible for 3rd parties to build a power base an support sufficient to win the presidency, which is a FPTP election.

                Unless and until there is election reform to allow ranked-choice voting–which Repubs and Dems will both oppose, and which is illegal in some states–you can not realistically have 3rd parties winning. Unless and until 3rd parties build up their power by winning at state and local elections, they will not win national offices. Right now, 3rd parties have no foundation of power that they can use to win national elections.

                The closest the US has come in the last one hundred years to a 3rd party presidential win was H. Ross Perot, over 30 years ago. Before that, you have to look at Theodore Roosevelt’s Bull Moose party, right around the time of the Great War.

    • DarkFuture@lemmy.world
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      15 hours ago

      Then maybe a 3rd party should get off their fucking asses and start getting some representatives elected locally, so that they can eventually have EVEN ONE representative in Congress, so that maybe some day voting 3rd party for president isn’t the dumbest fucking thing imaginable.

      • 13igTyme@lemmy.world
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        10 hours ago

        People that vote third party, don’t down ballot vote or vote in mid-terms. They don’t even vote in primaries. Example: Bernie.

      • Diplomjodler@lemmy.world
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        2 days ago

        Actually, having a progressive party and a conservative party would be far better than having a conservative party and fascist party.

        • LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net
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          2 days ago

          Lol and you and I voting third party leads to that outcome how exactly?

          Of all the terrible things happening, I think it’s people’s hopelessly terrible understanding of politics that makes me the most depressed right now.

          Edit: I don’t like how negative this comment is so I want to add some possible solutions. Change requires collective action. Individual votes are insignificant to the point of meaninglessness.

          There are three main strategies I can see to create a force for progressive or leftist change.

          1. Change the political system so that third parties become viable. This is tough because the duopoly doesn’t want it, and without a party where is your base of power? So I don’t think it’s particularly viable on its own—but there are orgs that push for this, and they have the advantage of being nonpartisan and can appeal to many people of many political persuasions. So if you want to make this your priority, tap into some of those organizations. But this also means ignoring pressing crises of today in the hope that reforming the electoral system will allow us to address them in the future. But of this there is no guarantee—it’s just as likely a fascist party will gain from your efforts as a leftist one.
          2. Achieve a takeover from the inside of the Democratic Party. This is basically how the republicans went from conservatives to fascists. It might be the easiest of the three—but that doesn’t mean it will be easy. It means people need to set aside their distaste for democrats and the system and put a lot of effort into attending local meetings, voting for delegates, etc. It also has the drawback that the system itself has a tendency to corrupt reformers and bring them in line with its logic.
          3. Create political power outside of a direct political party. Personally I think this might be the best approach if your goals are to radically transform society. There are many directions one could take, organizing with DSA or another org that makes endorsements, union organizing, mutual aid, etc. Basically you want to organize a mass of people who can sway society by acting in unison to either impose costs or benefits on those you wish to influence—or to directly enact or disrupt programs yourselves. The downside is that this is very very difficult and it may take years of going nowhere to organize enough people to really have an influence. But because the other two operate within existing systems of power, it has the greatest potential to bring about large transformations in society. But only if you put in the work and enough people join you.
          • disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world
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            1 day ago

            That wall of idealism is great if you could get it into the minds and hearts of the majority of voters. I tried myself, back in the late 90s. Seeing Bush win after I stumped for Nader was a sobering wake up call. Can you imagine the guilt I felt protesting Bush’s blood for oil wars knowing that I actively disengaged people from voting for Gore?

            FPTP is in control. We are not. We get two choices. Anything else is equivalent to abstention.

            • LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net
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              1 day ago

              Big changes requires idealism. Will it happen? I don’t know, but I’m just saying these are the strategies that I can see being at least possible.

  • saltesc@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    It’s the two party system in a post. Don’t worry, your democracy is dead either way. Whether engaging in TPS or ignoring it for a fart in a blizzard vote, it’s all far too late.

    • GeeDubHayduke@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      3 hours ago

      Keep dragging it out. I appreciate when people wear a sandwich board that proudly declares “The Person Wearing This Is An Idiot.”

    • DarkFuture@lemmy.world
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      16 hours ago

      “Don’t vote for the genocidal Dems. Vote for the more genocidal GOP or don’t vote at all in protest.” - Stupid Fucking Fuckheads

    • Rhoeri@lemmy.world
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      16 hours ago

      It sure is a good thing that “genocidal candidate” lost thanks to you, isn’t it?

      And hey… when taking that giant whiff of all those rosy farts of yours, go ahead and give yourself a moment to congratulate yourself with a pat on the back for having saved Palestine from what would have been so much genocide!

      فلسطين مباركة

  • delusion@lemmy.myserv.one
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    1 day ago

    Someone: “I voted for what I belive in, which one of course should be able to do in a well functioning democracy”

    Lemmy: “Nooooo you gotta vote for this one and only option, it’s the only way to protect our democracy (???)”

    Guys the third party voters is not the problem, the two party system is. Come on. Voting third party or is a valid and important statement. Voting major party is legitimising an undemocratic system.

    Riot against your government on the streets. That’s where you make the big difference - not in the voting booth.

    • nexguy@lemmy.world
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      1 day ago

      Fine, then riot in the streets with a Democrat in office instead of the racist bigoted nation destoyer.

      • 13igTyme@lemmy.world
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        10 hours ago

        I don’t get why people don’t understand this. With a Democrat in office, you can protest and push for change. It’s happened for plenty of past presidents. When an authoritarian is in office, people disappear when protesting. People forget Kamala Litterally said she would push for a ceasefire. LINK.

        But no People thought Donald “Let Israel finish them off” Trump was somehow the same.

    • newaccountwhodis@lemmy.ml
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      1 day ago

      This is so true, especially since the Democatic party does the same things the GOP does, just a little more civil. The Biden admin sent bombs to Israel, persecuted striking workers and refused to codify Roe vs. Wade (amongst a ton of other things). Both parties are bought by billionaires and act in their interest, I don’t get how anyone could justify voting dems over third party