You’re not talking about whataboutisim you’re doing a whataboutisim. Israel is an apartheid state. If Israel want’s to stop the violence they can get their settlers out of the west bank. They can give back Gaza. Until they get the fuck out of Palestinian land I can’t blame the Palestinians for fighting to get them out.
If Israel want’s to stop the violence they can get their settlers out of the west bank.
Somewhat naive to think that will stop the violence. Israel was withdrawing through the 90s as part of the Oslo Process, which ended with the Second Initifada. There are substantial populations on both sides that want the other side gone from that land completely, and they will take any opportunity to further entrench themselves and stoke conflict.
The US & Israelis were still hoping Arafat would come back to the table until the Intifada broke out. Peace takes time and some weren’t willing to give it the time it needed.
The US & Israelis were still hoping Arafat would come back to the table until the Intifada broke out.
Israel was pretty clear about what they wanted, and that was not a real, self-sufficient Palestinian state. If you need proof of that, take a look at the modern West Bank. Israel actively funded Hamas in the early 90s to weaken the Palestinian peace movement, and would later take many such actions to divide Palestinians and prevent peace from happening.
The last time the Israeli government seriously considered a two-state solution was in 1947.
Israel was pretty clear about what they wanted, and that was not a real, self-sufficient Palestinian state.
And the PLO was established with the aim of eliminating the state of Israel. Times change. I think Arafat and Rabin were serious at the time, but there was simply too much of a gap to bridge. Since then it’s only gotten worse. Yes, Israel funded Hamas, but at the time they were more concerned about the violence of the PLO. I don’t believe the intent was to create a more dangerous enemy as a pretext for war as some are suggesting now, however it was stupid and short-sighted, and blowback is a much more widely recognized phenomenon today than it was then.
Better? No. People much more experienced in negotiation and more knowledgeable of the history than you or I have tried for decades. The Arab League rejected the first offer, which remains to this day the best offer, in a UN vote. They never wanted Israel to exist and they still don’t, and yet it does. Compromise is not a solution here; the British knew that in 1948 when they refused to enforce the partition plan. I hope to be proven wrong some day, but from my perspective, the only solution is for one side to win.
One non-solution would be totalitarian secular governments like Egypt in both Palestine and Israel, and to immediately jail jihaadists and ultra-orthodox who make the slightest suggestion of violence. But instead there’s a flawed democracy in Israel where Likud relies on the violence against Israel to gain support and a jihaadist totalitarian government in Gaza.
You could as easily say israel would stop bombing palestine if hamas stopped doing terrorist attacks but then were just going back 100 years of back and forth tbh.
Point is that if israel did what you said today, the violence towards them would not stop. And just picking one side and unilaterally ignoring everything bad the other side has done is literally just feeding into this shit
Yes, the current government tacitly tolerates illegal settlements. It’s terrible. Prior governments saw them for what they were, an obstacle to peace, and understood they had to be stopped. There’s a difference between Likud and the far-right batshits that have been able to barely cling to power, and the entire country of Israel.
You think you said something smart but that music festival took place on stolen land.
Doesn’t make it ok to kill civilians. But yes. That’s what they were doing. They were violently removing the guests of the colonist state invading them.
And speaking of killing civilians didn’t the government of Israel just tell a bunch of civilians where to seek shelter and then immediately bomb that shelter? How very honorable of them
It’s funny how everyone forgets that 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, the vast majority of which are Israeli citizens, and did not have their land stolen. Most of those that fled were listening to the propaganda of the Arab states that the Jews would commit genocide and were hopeful that the forces of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Egypt would commit massive genocide against the Jews, some were fleeing from retribution of their own violent pogroms. Does Israel have shitty politics? Yes. Does Israel need a constitution? Yes. Is it revealing that folks don’t know a damn thing about the actual history of the place when they say Israel is an apartheid state, as Palestinian leadership has, time and again, ruined hope for lasting peace. Fuck Israelis setting up illegal settlements. The fact that Netanyahu actively ignores this/encourages it is atrocious. But to pretend there is anything approaching political unity in Israel is a lie and a farce.
I dk what you think you’re saying but you’re just admitting that Israel kills civilians on purpose. You’re dropping the veil of “human shields” and admitting that Israel is putting the civilians where they know Hamas is so they can use it as an excuse to kill both.
It’s actually because the “refugee camp” is a city of 120,000 people that have been there for 76 years in permanent buildings.
It was struck because militants were firing from it. Yes, there will be civilian casualties while Hamas is hiding in civilian structures. That’s what Hamas does.
I just checked my history and I haven’t used the word camp on Lemmy before right this very second. I’m pretty sure you have me confused with someone else.
Well congratu-fucking-lations, you got the attention of big brother USA now by killing and kidnapping Americans. Hope y’all are prepared for the Gerald R Ford and her CSG, 'cause ready or not, here we come.
With that logic there is no solution and Israel is justified in depopulating Gaza entirely. These recent attacks on Israel only benefit Hamas leaders and those that fund them.
With that logic there is no solution and Israel is justified in depopulating Gaza entirely.
OK so just to be clear I said “Israel needs to stop taking what isn’t theirs” and you said “nah they should just kill everyone”. And people still don’t know which side is wrong here?
You’re not talking about whataboutisim you’re doing a whataboutisim. Israel is an apartheid state. If Israel want’s to stop the violence they can get their settlers out of the west bank. They can give back Gaza. Until they get the fuck out of Palestinian land I can’t blame the Palestinians for fighting to get them out.
Somewhat naive to think that will stop the violence. Israel was withdrawing through the 90s as part of the Oslo Process, which ended with the Second Initifada. There are substantial populations on both sides that want the other side gone from that land completely, and they will take any opportunity to further entrench themselves and stoke conflict.
Look at the Israeli terms of the Camp David summit and you’ll get why the Intifada happened. These are terms no self-respecting state would accept.
The US & Israelis were still hoping Arafat would come back to the table until the Intifada broke out. Peace takes time and some weren’t willing to give it the time it needed.
Israel was pretty clear about what they wanted, and that was not a real, self-sufficient Palestinian state. If you need proof of that, take a look at the modern West Bank. Israel actively funded Hamas in the early 90s to weaken the Palestinian peace movement, and would later take many such actions to divide Palestinians and prevent peace from happening.
The last time the Israeli government seriously considered a two-state solution was in 1947.
And the PLO was established with the aim of eliminating the state of Israel. Times change. I think Arafat and Rabin were serious at the time, but there was simply too much of a gap to bridge. Since then it’s only gotten worse. Yes, Israel funded Hamas, but at the time they were more concerned about the violence of the PLO. I don’t believe the intent was to create a more dangerous enemy as a pretext for war as some are suggesting now, however it was stupid and short-sighted, and blowback is a much more widely recognized phenomenon today than it was then.
You got a better solution?
Better? No. People much more experienced in negotiation and more knowledgeable of the history than you or I have tried for decades. The Arab League rejected the first offer, which remains to this day the best offer, in a UN vote. They never wanted Israel to exist and they still don’t, and yet it does. Compromise is not a solution here; the British knew that in 1948 when they refused to enforce the partition plan. I hope to be proven wrong some day, but from my perspective, the only solution is for one side to win.
One non-solution would be totalitarian secular governments like Egypt in both Palestine and Israel, and to immediately jail jihaadists and ultra-orthodox who make the slightest suggestion of violence. But instead there’s a flawed democracy in Israel where Likud relies on the violence against Israel to gain support and a jihaadist totalitarian government in Gaza.
I dk man, sounds like a cop out. I’m pretty sure if Israel just stopped doing war crimes hamas would eventually lose support in Palestine.
Laying back and embracing the final solution your proposing just doesn’t seem like the right call.
You could as easily say israel would stop bombing palestine if hamas stopped doing terrorist attacks but then were just going back 100 years of back and forth tbh.
Point is that if israel did what you said today, the violence towards them would not stop. And just picking one side and unilaterally ignoring everything bad the other side has done is literally just feeding into this shit
Actually I can’t. I don’t remember Israel blaming hamas when Israel let Israeli settlers kick Palestinians out of their homes.
Yes, the current government tacitly tolerates illegal settlements. It’s terrible. Prior governments saw them for what they were, an obstacle to peace, and understood they had to be stopped. There’s a difference between Likud and the far-right batshits that have been able to barely cling to power, and the entire country of Israel.
Oh is that what they were doing at the music festival?
You think you said something smart but that music festival took place on stolen land.
Doesn’t make it ok to kill civilians. But yes. That’s what they were doing. They were violently removing the guests of the colonist state invading them.
And speaking of killing civilians didn’t the government of Israel just tell a bunch of civilians where to seek shelter and then immediately bomb that shelter? How very honorable of them
It’s funny how everyone forgets that 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, the vast majority of which are Israeli citizens, and did not have their land stolen. Most of those that fled were listening to the propaganda of the Arab states that the Jews would commit genocide and were hopeful that the forces of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Egypt would commit massive genocide against the Jews, some were fleeing from retribution of their own violent pogroms. Does Israel have shitty politics? Yes. Does Israel need a constitution? Yes. Is it revealing that folks don’t know a damn thing about the actual history of the place when they say Israel is an apartheid state, as Palestinian leadership has, time and again, ruined hope for lasting peace. Fuck Israelis setting up illegal settlements. The fact that Netanyahu actively ignores this/encourages it is atrocious. But to pretend there is anything approaching political unity in Israel is a lie and a farce.
All I took from that was “the Arab states told Palestinians that [Israel] would commit genocide” and they were right.
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If you think that 20% is gonna be allowed to stay if Israel gets their way then I have a Palestinian bridge to sell you
Thanks, I’ll take a bridge.
They told them to go to a city and then bombed where Hamas was, which was also in that city.
I dk what you think you’re saying but you’re just admitting that Israel kills civilians on purpose. You’re dropping the veil of “human shields” and admitting that Israel is putting the civilians where they know Hamas is so they can use it as an excuse to kill both.
Not even remotely.
Copied from another comment
It was struck because militants were firing from it. Yes, there will be civilian casualties while Hamas is hiding in civilian structures. That’s what Hamas does.
Sure they were. Just like Hamas was hiding in the AP building. Just like Hamas was hiding in Shireen Abu Aqla’s coffin.
You didn’t even know the “camp” was a literal city.
Consider that you’ve bought into propaganda.
I just checked my history and I haven’t used the word camp on Lemmy before right this very second. I’m pretty sure you have me confused with someone else.
Well congratu-fucking-lations, you got the attention of big brother USA now by killing and kidnapping Americans. Hope y’all are prepared for the Gerald R Ford and her CSG, 'cause ready or not, here we come.
Lol America isn’t getting militarily involved in this one
Kinda too late for that considering we essentially finance the IDF.
So what’s the Gerald R Ford Carrier Strike Group doing in the Eastern Mediterranean?
Deterring Iran, mostly.
With that logic there is no solution and Israel is justified in depopulating Gaza entirely. These recent attacks on Israel only benefit Hamas leaders and those that fund them.
OK so just to be clear I said “Israel needs to stop taking what isn’t theirs” and you said “nah they should just kill everyone”. And people still don’t know which side is wrong here?
No, I said with your logic that would be justified. You can intentionally misssunderstand me all that you like though.
In what world does someone saying “hey you can’t steal my house” justify you to murder them?
Sure like they just left a polite note. You totally convinced me with your flawless argument.