I agree with this, but I think we should have some kind of linguistic distinction between pride as in ‘I’m proud I’m not one of those inferior people’ and pride as in ‘I am not ashamed of my heritage’. Because having one word being used both ways has led to people with wildly diverging interpretations of the same sentence.
I didn’t even consider the first one to exist and was briefly upset at George for saying people shouldn’t be proud/accepting of their base characteristics, but what you say makes sense of it for me.
A potentially mind-blowing thing that really drives this point home:
Obama is half-black and half-white (black father and white mother). He’s often and comfortably claimed to be the first black president, but never referred to as a white president, though he’s equally both.
Some races and ethnicities have historically been considered as subtractive, and this is the often unconsidered evil of ethnic or cultural allegiance.
Logically it still made sense, IMO. If he’s half black and half white, while all previous presidents were only white, then the black part is the discriminating factor one could highlight as a success to deviate from the previous norm.
If you wanted to highlight this deviation without leaning in on the black part, you would have had to use something like “not fully white”, which would have been explicitly subtractive and therefore much worse.
Of course one could simply ignore the skin color completely, but I also see empowering in highlighting this shift of breaking an otherwise strict all white run.
This is because the American slave owners wanted to be able to sell their own children.
After raping a slave, if she got pregnant they could free their child or keep them as a slave.
Thomas Jefferson’s concubine, Sally Hemmings, was probably 3/4 white, and at least 1/2 white. Her granddaughter created a scandal when she ‘passed’ for white.
If an american tries to call themselves Native because they are 1/32 Native, people laugh at them. But up until a few years ago, being 1/64 Black made you Black.
Yeah, a monosyllabic word for “I didn’t earn this, but I want to make it clear it’s not something to be ashamed of either” would be pretty dope.
This is why I prefer the word “celebrate”. I didn’t do anything to achieve neurodivergence, it’s not an accomplishment, so why would I be proud of it? But I can be proud of the times when I can push past the executive dysfunction and actually tidy my room.
But I can surely celebrate neurodivergence.
But that’s just me. I don’t mind if other people want to shout “autistic pride”. I used to get accused of being “proud” and “arrogant” a lot by a family member when I was mute or in shutdown, so that might be why I feel an aversion to that word.
Why do you want to hold a celebration?
Because we’re proud. Oh, dangit…
That’s actually what left-wing nationalism is often about (But not always, sometimes it is economical left-populists trying to cope) Also I dont think we need anyone to tell how to relate to others. In a healthy(!) society people can sort themselves out without need to be controlled by some multi-culturalist enforcement (because idea of multiculturalism is kinda impossible)
How is ‘multiculturalism’ impossible? Try spending a day in any big city. People use words from different languages all the time. They use chopsticks and European table ware at the same meal.
You don’t even need to go to a big city. Look at the All American cowboy. Pretty much everything you associate with him comes from Mexico. His lariat comes from ‘la riata’ and his Stetson was based on a sombrero.
It’s the last thing you can be proud of, if you have nothing else.
You think I should be proud more of having a hairy ass?
That can at least keep you warm and shows people from far away that you’re likely an adult man. Two things a hairy ass can do that ethnicity can’t.
But ass hair has never taught me a recipe…
shows people from far away that you’re likely an adult man.
My ass isn’t that big for people from far away to notice its hairiness :)
Proof, if any were needed, that you really can’t win 'em all
How can we evaluate whether you should be proud of it if you don’t even post pics?
Logic, my hairy ass craving friend. Just use logic. If nationality is the last thing to be proud of then any other characteristic (ass including) has higher priority.
I still cringe when people still seem to hold onto some notion that America is the greatest thing ever. I’m not even talking about MAGA. Like people foolishly still believe a war mongering state like the US should forever be known as the greatest thing ever. Like legit. In their eyes, no other country has come close and no other country does anything just as good. The US is the only leader in anything in their eyes. They make it so dramatic about how much pride they have in the country when they’ve been fed propaganda all their lives. lmao
To them I say, it’s not about U.S. vs the rest of the world. It’s about us, the people, against the corrupt and the state. Like John Lennon says, “no country to die for”. It’s just about people man. Fuck the state. Fuck your borders bullshit.
It’s really cringe and almost everyone does it. Most speeches at the start of an election campaign begin this way, also for liberals. When K. Harris said “We’re America and we’re the only country, where I, a black woman ™, could ever run for office…”
Like, look around. There are women, black people, and black women in office right now around the world. And that’s coming from the more “” “” left “” “” side.
And yet yanks still say “I’m Scottish”, when their great, great, great grandmother was born in Scotland
It’s pathetic
This is why I’m always confused when people get upset with me for not being “patriotic” or whatever. The state and country I’m born in is just dirt surrounded by water. I could not care less about it. It’s just where my mom plopped me out at. Everything else is arbitrary nonsense.
I agree with this 100© but Netanyahu would call this line of thinking anti-Semitism
And I call him a cunt
Along with anybody who thinks an invisible sky-daddy has “chosen” them
it’s tribalism, and I hate to say it because people throw this phrase around too much but I genuinely believe it’s low IQ behavior
It is
It’s very easy to see who clings to this sort of shit
It’s people who have achieved nothing of actual value
I also want to emphasize that I don’t mean “community tribalism” as in social support groups, but more so “them vs us” world view, the exclusiveness aspect
Divide and conquer is one of the oldest tricks rulers use. the people cant stand up to you if they hate each other.
When people have nothing to be proud of they will take anything they can get
Understanding nationalism from a left perspective requires that we understand what a nation is. In Marxist theory, a nation is a “historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, and psychological make-up manifested in a common culture.” Nationalist movements are therefore struggles for sovereignty. Nationalism must be understood from its relation as a nation. Nationalism of oppressor nations and nationalism of oppressed nations are both struggles for sovereignty, the core difference being that oppressor nations have already gained the ability to determine their own future, and this progressive movement turns into its opposite, supremacy.
This is why we can say that the nationalist movements in Palestine, Ireland, indigenous Americans, and so forth are undoubtedly progressive in gaining that right to self-determination. This is also why we can say that Euro-American nationalism is a supremacist ideology. This is why nationalism can be difficult to understand in relation to internationalism, but the simple truth is that an internationalist stance requires the right of self-determination for all nations. This is the bedrock of internationalism and a greater international human identity. It isn’t an erasure of culture and national identity, but a celebration of all of them.
TL;DR: nationalist movements in oppressed nations like Palestine good, nationalist movements in oppressor nations like the US bad.
Eat shit Lee Greenwood and go fuck yourself.
There is a utility in having some national pride, in the same way as there is in having some pride in your place of residence. If you feel some pride for your home, you are more likely to invest time and resources in caring for and improving it. If you don’t care about your home you are unlikely to put any effort into taking care of it.
Nothing is quite as long-term damaging to a nation as convincing its own people to think poorly of it.
Personally I think a fair amount of the damage that the US is doing to itself now is a result of foreign influence campaigns repeatedly targeting the US’s worst international blunders. These criticisms are valid and true, but they are not the entire truth and the selective lense is intentional.
A common response to self-loathing is a defensive, reactionary display of narcissism.
An alternative view is that National Pride reduces people’s pressure to improve their country and especially reduces the pressure they put on the elites leading the country to improve it.
Certainly were I was born - Portugal - the peak time of celebrating the past glories of the country (basically, the stuff that happened during the age of maritime discovery) was during the Fascist Dictatorship, when the country was in such a bad state that it received Food Aid from the rest of Europe.
My own experience living in Britain also adds up to this impression: the people there who were most loudly proud of the country and its past where those doing the most to destroy it with Brexit.
A very similar effect is visible in the US - those who are loudest at harping about the greatness of the country are those helping the present day elites pillage it, de facto bringing it down (there is no such thing anymore as The American Dream).
In my experience National Pride isn’t an incentive to do better, it’s the very opposite.
If you don’t care about your home you are unlikely to put any effort into taking care of it.
You’re conflating care and pride. There’s a very rational reason for caring about one’s own home, and that’s the fact that you live there.
Nothing is quite as long-term damaging to a nation as convincing its own people to think poorly of it.
Uh… examples? I’m pretty sure we’ve seen more of the opposite, where rampant nationalism or similar leads societies to disaster.
Personally I think a fair amount of the damage that the US is doing to itself now is a result of foreign influence campaigns repeatedly targeting the US’s worst international blunders.
Evidence?
You’re conflating care and pride.
No, I’m connecting them. That’s the point. I did not say that they were the same thing. Rather, that one motivates the other.
There’s a very rational reason for caring about one’s own home
Rational is all well and good, but it doesn’t motivate people in the same way that emotional attachment does. You can’t argue someone into or out of an emotion with good reason.
I’m pretty sure we’ve seen more of the opposite, where rampant nationalism or similar leads societies to disaster.
My point is that rampant nationalism (the national form of narcissism) is an outward symptom of self-loathing. You’re making my argument for me.
Personally I think a fair amount of the damage that the US is doing to itself now is a result of foreign influence campaigns repeatedly targeting the US’s worst international blunders.
Evidence?
If I had direct evidence of the conclusion, I would not have begun with the qualifier “Personally I think”. Do you generally struggle with reading comprehension?
I can point to evidence that Russia in particular has a pattern of sowing division within target countries in order to destabilize them, usually followed by political or military pressure of some kind:
https://thewalrus.ca/the-russian-money-behind-albertas-separatist-movement/
Russia has used social media to destabilize former Soviet states such as Ukraine and Western nations such as France and Spain. It has been suggested that since 2019, Russian-sponsored troll accounts and bots have formed and taken over prominent left-wing and right-wing subreddits on Reddit, such as the antiwar, greenandpleasant, and aboringdystopia subreddits, “suggest[ing] a Russian-led attempt to antagonize and influence Americans online, which is still ongoing.” Canadian subreddits have also been directly targeted by Russia.
Russia’s numerous disinformation attacks including support for white supremacist activities and attacks of Biden’s mental fitness were utilized by Donald Trump, senior Trump Administration officials, and his re-election campaign.
The Washington Post reported in April 2024 that the Russian foreign ministry was using disinformation to weaken Western countries, in particular the United States. The document was said to be the first official confirmation of such policies and The Washington Post observed Russian attempts to disrupt American and European domestic politics. It also said this was done to shift the balance of power to Russia and other Second World countries such as China, Iran, and North Korea. The Guardian reported Russia was seeking to spread conspiracy theories among the American far right to undermine support for Ukraine. Voice of America reported that Russian disinformation campaigns have focused on promoting American isolationism, tensions between various races as well as border security concerns. The Telegraph reported that Russia and China were promoting pro-Palestinian influencers in order to manipulate British public opinion in favor of Russian and Chinese interests.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_disinformation
This is standard practice for Russian foreign policy - essentially astroturfing on social media to create social disruption, while also specifically inflaming and amplifying existing groups of malcontents.
There’s a very rational reason for caring about one’s own home, and that’s the fact that you live there.
As opposed to your country, where you clearly don’t live?
The point is that there are motivations to improve one’s country that don’t come with all the baggage nationalism comes with (namely the fact that members of a nebulously defined “nation” are implicitly or explicitly elevated above all others).
This is true but it also makes sense why youwould wanna be patriotic(not nationalistic, important distinction). Youre born somewhere, and you dont have a choice in that, but you still grow up with people arround you who have a certain culture, who raise you, who youre freinds with. You can associate with them and try to improve your community without pushing down others. I think this is the concept patriotism is based on. Also i never get these posts, do these people truly not understand how a racist, or a nationalists mind works? The same way you should be able to put yourself into the shoes of someone recieving hate, you should be able to see from the perepective of the one hating on others. I guess that explains why there are so many asinine approaches to politics from both sides. Dont get me wrong, i hate the right, but the reason theyre outplaying us is because they can see from our perspectives better than we can see from theirs, which is very dissapointing when we should be the empathetic left. Something might not make sense but you should still understand how someone gets to that conclusion, especially since i have a pretty big problem with this specific qoute. Two of these groups, irish and italian, have recieved a lot of discrimination. Wouldnt you be proud of who you are if they discriminated against you, wouldnt you fight back? Its the same with being queer, its not a choice, thats exactly what were trying to communicate to the right, yet you have pride for the exact same reason italian and irish americans have pride, to show you are here. This qoute is basically this guys sufferring, or hate or something similar packaged in a way that makes it look smart instead. And im not blaming the guy, something drove him to react this way.
Ahh, after reading hes irish american. See? He shouldnt be pride to be born irish, instead be proud of his people and himself for going through discrimination. Today this is much less of a thing but being born in 1937 couldnt have been easy in an irish immigrant family. Theres always more to the story is all im saying. Nuance, you know.
For me, that’s the différence between a nationalist and a patriot: the nationalist thinks their country is the best, the patriot wants the best for their country. A patriot will see the flaws in the system and will try to correct them for the benefit of the community. A patriot will be happy when other people will want to join the community to make it better, or to change it. A patriot is happy when the community evolves, and will work for it. A patriot can be a foreigner initially. Doesn’t change anything. The nationalist cannot accept change. Therefore, they don’t accept anything that can make their community evolve. They don’t realize their country changed in the past, they idealize a vision completely unbalanced of history and cannot see the flaws in the system.
Unfortunately today, the patriot is a nuisance and the nationalist a useful tool for the nefarious people which wants just more power and more money.
It’s easy to sell something to someone who thinks nothing should change, it’s hard to contempt someone who wants to change a system.
People will apply this to something like gay pride, black pride, etc. But those forms of pride are about standing in opposition to prejudice, oppression, and hardship, where the inherent aspects of your existence are demonized, stereotyped, or seen as lesser. The pride is in making it through the world and accepting/celebrating yourself despite all the hate and dangers others force onto you.
Having pride in being part of a marginalized group isnt about feeling superior to other groups. It is about rebelling against those who feel themselves superior to you.
Pride is the wrong word. You are grateful to be born into a certain country like you are grateful to not have a predisposition for cancer
Have you ever been to a cultural parade, even when you’re not part of that culture? They are so fun, especially if you’re only being accepted as the culture for a day or so. Some cultures are much more family oriented too, so they’re going to understand each other and rise above most things together. I get it.
