I have a problem with establishing boundaries.
I’m a private person. That’s very often misinterpreted as being arrogant and feeling superior to others. I’m not, I just wish to be left alone, but people still feel disrespected and it’s tiring to be constantly explaining yourself. And I don’t understand why I have to explain myself constantly.
This very emotional and thankful patient wanted a picture with me and I stupidly agreed. He also wanted my phone number (I gave him a false one) to invite me to have lunch, as he celebrated his 70th birthday. I don’t believe it was sexual or romantic, because he is married, his wife was there when he extended the invitation and took the picture and he also wanted to invite the whole unit.
I acted like this because it was the easiest way to get him to leave the hospital and free the room but also because I didn’t want to cause a scene.
What could I do next time?
If this only happens at work, then you can say, “Sorry, that’s against my department’s policy. We’ve had some incidents and my boss told us not to.”
“ I appreciate the invitation but I have a policy to not meet patients outside of work or take photos with patients.”
(And, probably, so does the hospital, at least for the meeting people outside work,)
If they need more, a “it makes me feel uncomfortable.” And walk away before they make it weird.
Whatever you do, don’t blame policies at the hospital because other staff probably are okay with it, and/or they’ll bitch at management who will respond with a “that’s not true….” Or something.
Once you’re outed it’s just gonna get weirder.
Maybe there is such a policy. Doesn’t hurt to check.
If there really is a policy about it, then that’s all that needs to be said, of course.
I sort of imagine there is a policy about dating/romantic/otherwise intimate relationships with patients, but also imagine that as described there’s no specific policy, if that makes sense.
Thank you, that’s very kind, but for professional ethics reasons I’ll have to decline your offer.
I think it’s also perfectly reasonable to say the truth instead, and replace “professional ethics” with “personal”.
If they are appreciative of you, and don’t truly want to do whatever it is that makes you the most comfortable or happy, they should be exposed to a learning opportunity.
If they get offended. Maybe they eventually figure out that, just maybe, you shouldn’t express gratitude with selfishness.
Anyways. That’s ny two cents. Say it as it is.
It’s shocking how many people are suggesting lying in a way that’s so easy to get caught. “Weird I just took a picture with the nurses and the other doctor.” That’s going to make it even more awkward.
If I were you, just suck it up and take the picture, and then say you dont hand out your private number to patients and like to keep the relationships professional. This is presumably honest.
Not taking the picture is really spitting in the guys face. It’s so quick and it goes a long way to making them feel good, and feel good about you. It’s one of those things I would explain to my kid that you just do it and get it out of the way even if you don’t like it.
Not giving our your number is entirely reasonable, and I suspect is also honest.
Not taking the picture is really spitting in the guys face. It’s so quick and it goes a long way to making them feel good, and feel good about you. It’s one of those things I would explain to my kid that you just do it and get it out of the way even if you don’t like it.
I simply don’t want to be in anyone’s photo album. Not respecting my privacy is incredibly disrespectful and mean.
Having your picture in someone else’s album is such a non-thing that it just doesn’t make sense to be this upset over it.
I swear this is like arguing that you don’t want to say please and thank you because you don’t like talking to other people. Just suck it up and do it, as it greases the wheels of social interaction and would clearly, at least in the case of the OP, make this person happy.
If you said no and they did so anyway, that would be disrespectful and mean. But telling you that it’s the polite thing to do, and that you’re just getting upset over what amounts to nothing, is neither of those two things.
I dont like my picture on the internet. So I refuse all photos where possible. I have family, they take pictures, they’re aware of this and so I’m never the direct focus of the shot (you might see me in the background).
OP said they don’t want to take pictures with people, they shouldn’t have to take pictures with someone. Instead, you should be teaching your son to stand up for their boundaries, even in the face of ‘tradition’. If your kid says “I don’t like hugging grandma”, are you making them give hugs or are you encouraging them to tell people in their life, who they trust, how they feel?
What about saying please and thank you? If my kid doesn’t want to show that kind of respect to those around them, should be like “good job setting boundaries” or should I point out how this will hurt them and upset other people?
I would never force my children to do anything they don’t want to (well, I guess I can’t say that because, well, anyone who is a parent knows thats just a pipe dream lol). More to the point, I’m also not forcing the OP. They asked for advice, and I gave it. And yes if my kids didn’t want to hug my mother, I would probably explain to them that this is likely to hurt them because of tension it might create in their relationship, physical affection is generally a positive thing for bother parties, and how it also hurts their grandmother.
Please and thank you don’t violate barriers. It does not allow someone into your space, you don’t have to give anything of yourself to say them, and if you’re a good person you probably mean them. A better example for what you’re looking for would be handshakes. It’s common in most western cultures at several social functions, and it can be considered rather rude to refuse one, it got a lot of folks angry during covid apparently. That’s where two parties acknowledge the social bindings that call for a physical touch establishing a mutual respect. I never miss saying a please and thank you, but best believe I’m still doing the ‘covid shrug’ when I turn down handshakes.
So, you’d tell your child that “yes, you have autonomy in this, but your feelings regarding your need for personal space matter less than your grandmother’s want for a hug” is what I’m gathering? Do you educate your mother on the child’s wants/needs? There’s a reason why people are educated that, as far as physical touch is concerned, nobody else’s feelings should be taken into account. If someone can’t love a child without hugs, then I don’t think they really understand the concept or application of love.
I’m not saying this is your case, the next bit is an extreme but important to the overall argument, I think. People have identified that exact thinking pattern in why they didn’t report sexual assault from a family member. Because they weren’t taught how to properly say no and why the right to refuse touch is important, it was that much easier to abuse them.
Please and thank you don’t violate barriers.
Sure they do. Some people don’t like to talk to other people, and don’t want to have to say these things. Hell, sometimes I say please and thank you to people I don’t even like, even resisting the urge to be rude because i don’t like them, but because I realize it’s the right thing to do. You’re basically agreeing with my point here, you are just putting the threshold of what constitutes a violation of a barrier at a different point, and arbitrarily putting some line at “space.” That invasion of barriers is okay, telling people that they should say please and thank you, but others are not. The argument is really a matter of degrees.
Let’s be clear, we both agree that you don’t always put aside your own wants and needs to please another person. But sometimes it just makes sense to do so.
So, you’d tell your child that “yes, you have autonomy in this, but your feelings regarding your need for personal space matter less than your grandmother’s want for a hug” is what I’m gathering?
No, it’s not what you are gathering. That’s just how you are twisting it because you are trying to win the argument rather than come to some mutually agreeable position. I’m explaining to them that sometimes you should put your own minor issues aside for other people. I feel like you are arguing the opposite - which is why you are putting this in my mouth - and saying that your desires and wants should always be put above other people’s desires and wants.
Do you educate your mother on the child’s wants/needs?
Absolutely. Quite frequently. Relatively, way more than having to guide my child in towards the right answer.
There’s a reason why people are educated that, as far as physical touch is concerned, nobody else’s feelings should be taken into account.
I wish the world was this black and white and that you should always put your selfish desires above everyone else’s needs and desires. Unfortunately, the world we live in is an incredibly grey place where most things are a matter of degrees rather than a simply “yes/no” and sometimes the answer is to put others first.
Like, for instance, if they don’t want to briefly hug grandmom simply because they don’t like the way she smells. . .well, sometimes old people smell different, and if we love them we want to show that love to them in their love language. If that’s by a huge, then we should probably strongly consider doing it. If they don’t want to hug grandma because they have some sensory issues and any touch is bothersome, so be it that’s completely different and I know my mother would understand that. But the black and white answer to this question is wrong either way.
People have identified that exact thinking pattern in why they didn’t report sexual assault from a family member. Because they weren’t taught how to properly say no and why the right to refuse touch is important, it was that much easier to abuse them.
I assure you my children are taught what is and what is not appropriate touching, and we have a very open relationship where we discuss things all the time. But I feel like this is a “humans are bad at assessing risk” type of thing. . .like you’re so afraid of the rare instance where a child abused, that you are trading that outside risk for the near sure risk of them not developing good relationships with other people, which is a powerful skill.
Not respecting my privacy is incredibly disrespectful and mean.
You are wildly overstating it. Do you file a grievance every time the bank records your image? Privacy is not a right. You DID associate with the man, you DID socialize with the man, but you are so set against him recording the event that you consider it “incredibly disrespectful and mean?” Dude, that is a YOU thing.
No, it’s disrespectful to not respect my wish.
If one can’t respect a simple “no thanks”, fuck em.
It’s a little rude. That’s it. Nobody needs your permission to take your photo. They are doing you a social courtesy to ask at all. You deal with it with infinite grace when a corporation takes your photo. You can tamp down your umbrage a wee bit, I think, when someone you have a personal relationship with requests the same grace. Yes, it’s a little rude. No, it’s not “incredibly disrespectful and mean.”
They don’t need permission to take a photo of me, but they obviously do need permission to take a photo with me.
There is a huge difference there Jerkface.
I mean, it’s easier if you cooperate, but clearly they don’t need your permission if they are quicker or smarter than you.
It’s a little rude.
No it is not. What is rude and weird and creepy is your idea that people have obligation to take a photo with you.
They are doing you a social courtesy to ask at all.
Oh my. You must be chairman of your local incel club, huh?
You DID associate with the man, you DID socialize with the man
She did neither of these things. She rendered some services in a professional setting.
When I work in the store and sell you new shoes, I also “did not socialize with you” and it gives you absolutely no right to my privacy.
It’s one of those things I would explain to my kid that you just do it and get it out of the way even if you don’t like it.
and if he wanted to grab her ass just a little bit, would you also explain to your kid to just suck it up and get it over with?
Sucks to be your kid, if you have some.
Are you comparing sexual assault to having your photo taken? Yikes.
I am explaining to you that it is not your job to decide where other person have their boundaries.
Your only job is to respect them when they tell you, otherwise you risk anything between broken nose and jail.
And you seem to be strangely bent on explaining that it is really your opinion on someone else’s boundaries that matters, which is why you sound like a creep, you “yikes”
which is why you sound like a creep,
Yeah this is just too bizarre to continue. I’m done.
This has been bizarre since the moment you opened your mouth, too bad it didn’t stop you then.
Not taking the picture is really spitting in the guys face. It’s so quick and it goes a long way to making them feel good, and feel good about you. It’s one of those things I would explain to my kid that you just do it and get it out of the way even if you don’t like it.
Not even close. Not at all.
Spitting on someone, aside from being freaking nasty, mean, and frequently motivated by some type of bigotry, is pretty much considered the same as physical assault everywhere. Especially if one carries any sort of disease communicable by saliva (Hep-C comes to mind. Meningitis. COVID.)
Also, why do you- or whoever- get to have their feelings considered, but not OP’s? why do you feel like you- or whoever- is so entitled to another person’s likeness that they should just “Suck it up”?
This is ignoring the simple reality that sometimes, that photo going up on the internet puts the person who didn’t want it up in direct, literal, harm. maybe their profession has some religious prohibition that there’s violation. Maybe there’s a stalker ex. Maybe they’re in some type of witness protection or secret agent.
We don’t know why it’s uncomfortable, and it really doesn’t matter. People should be respected when they say “no, I don’t want my picture taken.”
(my money is totally on secret agent.)
But, yeah. Lying about there being a departmental prohibition on any of it is an easy way to just make the entire thing more awkward. It’s best to simply be candid and decline.
Spitting on someone, aside from being freaking nasty, mean, and frequently motivated by some type of bigotry
It’s a figure of speech. This is just pedanticism that completely avoids the actual point I made.
Also, why do you- or whoever- get to have their feelings considered, but not OP’s? why do you feel like you- or whoever- is so entitled to another person’s likeness that they should just “Suck it up”?
Because it’s the OP asking for advice on what to do in a certain situation. If it were someone else asking me what to do in the situation where they want to take a picture with someone that doesn’t want their picture taken, I would tell them to suck it up and go home without the picture.
This is ignoring the simple reality that sometimes, that photo going up on the internet puts the person who didn’t want it up in direct, literal, harm. maybe their profession has some religious prohibition that there’s violation. Maybe there’s a stalker ex. Maybe they’re in some type of witness protection or secret agent.
Except they gave us a reason: “I’m a private person.” Almost the first line of their post. The situation we were presented isn’t some case where it’s dangerous for them to have their picture taken. They just don’t want it. If it is risky for them, absolutely just decline.
People should be respected when they say “no, I don’t want my picture taken.”
Absolutely. But he didn’t say this, and explicitly said he doesn’t want to explain himself. So I responded to their actual request.
It’s best to simply be candid and decline.
I disagree. I get not wanting to give your number out to a patient or see one outside of work, and in that case you decline. I think most would understand this and not be offended.
But this person just wants a picture with them, baring some ridiculously rare shit that they made implicitly clear is not the case, it’s a simple, virtually riskless request and it’s best to just make another person happy and take a picture with them.
I agree that it would be a nice gesture, and I probably wouldn’t decline, but to just discount OPs feelings about it is FAR more rude than declining to be in a photo.
They don’t like it, and they should not consent just because it’ll make someone feel better.
I could go for a blowjob right now, I mean, it’s no big deal, will only take a few minutes and I’ll feel much better afterwards. It’s a simple, virtually riskless request (I know for a fact I don’t have any STIs) it’s best just to make another person happy and suck a dick.
Just because you’re ok with getting your picture taken, that doesn’t mean that someone else has to be. There are plenty of people who wouldn’t think twice about sucking off a stranger, how would you feel if they told you to just “deal with it”?
but to just discount OPs feelings about it is FAR more rude than declining to be in a photo.
I didn’t discount them. They asked for advice, which included not having to explain themselves, and I gave it to them.
And I feel pretty justified in my position if the counter position requires comparing getting your picture taken to sucking a dick.
I feel very uncomfortable doing this.
Who cares, just fucking do it anyway.
Real supportive there. Your feeling of justification just tells me you don’t want to understand.
Who cares, just fucking do it anyway.
I didn’t say no one cares, I said it would be something i tell my children to suck up and do anyway. Just like cleaning their rooms, brushing their teeth, or dressing nicely: all things that will help them out, and be pleasant for those around them, even if they don’t particularly like them.
But apparently we’ve gotten to the point where im just being misrepresented. If you don’t want to see my position, I can’t force you to.
If you don’t want to see my position
Dude, everyone sees your position clearly, you spend few hundred paragraphs repeating yourselves, and explaining that feelings of the person asking are more important than feelings of the person being asked and therefore it is rude to decline the wish.
People are disagreeing with you because that position is stupid and creepy, not because they don’t understand.
If you don’t want to see my position, I can’t force you to.
Likewise. Have a great day.
“I appreciate the kindness and am happy for your excitement and recovery, but no thank you. I don’t like to have my picture taken.”
Sounds like you had a wonderful patient who was grateful for you doing your craft. Do a compliment sandwich, but do it sincerely.
Complement Boundary Complement
“Oh my. I’m flattered. Thank you, but I’m not comfortable with that right now. You’ve been a wonderful patient and I enjoyed working with you too.”
This is just an example of the compliment sandwich structure and you should adjust the wording to serve you.
As for the phone number, just tell him that you were doing your job and seeing him better is all the reward you need. Again, adjust the wording for your truth.
I agree, and you can explain that it’s not personal, and offer an alternative -if you want- write a note as a memento or something
Hey, behavioral health clinician here. I get this a lot. The question is about boundaries. I’m seeing three kinds of responses: 1) lie 2) leave boundaries down 3) assert yourself. Obviously answer three is what you’re looking for, but the question is how. I like what u/FuglyDuck said: “ I appreciate the invitation but I have a policy to not meet patients outside of work or take photos with patients.”
Don’t think about boundaries as rules so much as walls. People who can’t assert themselves tend to have that wall down all the time and let anyone in. This can be uncomfortable, especially if you are a private person. So what is it that prevents the wall from coming up? A professional would stop here and let you figure out the rest but since I’m just a rando on the internet I’ll just take a guess and say maybe there’s some fear and guilt involved in not wanting to hurt the other person’s feelings or disappoint them or maybe just not knowing how to handle the change in atmosphere that you believe will come after setting the boundary up. And then I’d wanna know what makes you feel responsible for protecting their feelings, or what makes you assume it will hurt their feelings/change the atmosphere, and if there’s a way to carry yourself that preserves that emotion/atmosphere even after the wall is raised a bit. Phew, that was a long sentence. Anyway the more I ramble the less helpful this sounds, and that’s fine since I’m just a rando on the internet and not giving professional advice. Have a great day!
I am a bit of a shy person and being on spotlight could make me uncomfortable. A simple thank you is enough to brighten my day
“Thank you, but unfortunately the hospital/medical place doesn’t allow me to do that/accept an invite” ?
i was going to upvote but then I read FuglyDuck’s answer here.
I don’t think extra politeness is going to help you much here. If you don’t do what they ask you to do and they don’t understand why, they’ll probably assume you’re being rude, no matter which words or tone you choose.
You don’t need to explain yourself. Others need to learn to respect your choices about yourself. Yes, it’s tiring. It’s their fault, but partly your problem.
Your responsibility ends with “Thank you, but no.” Unfortunately, some people will feel hurt by this, no matter how cheerily you say it, because they simply don’t expect it. They will tell themselves that you are not being genuine by trying to both remain friendly and deny their request. You can’t change this; only they can choose to interpret your response differently. And most people never try this. Instead they merely expect you to be agreeable and do what they want you to do.
If you want to establish your boundaries, then you need to practise letting them feel hurt and not feeling responsible for it. This is one reason I meditate.
Peace.
If youre someone without a care for people or just plain socially inept then sure your advice can work.
All it takes is some social competency to understand how to politely reject someone even if it means changing your wording and tone.
You failed just now, so why would someone take your opinion about this seriously? (If this bothers you, then try reading it again in a cheerier tone. Oh! That didn’t help? Strange.)
You’re right they didn’t say it very nicely, but they are correct in a sense. You may need to use the “polite but firm card” if they aren’t taking no for an answer, but it doesn’t hurt to soften the rejection if you are saying no to a picture with a patient or someone else that you cared for. Many people will respect that, and the niceness goes a long way. And if they don’t respect it, you don’t owe them anything.
Yes. Of course. I fail to see where I suggested not softening the rejection. 🤷♂️
I write “You can’t make them take your no for an answer, they have to choose to do that. It’s not a matter of politeness and it’s not your responsibility.” and people draw conclusions based on facts not in evidence. That. Is. My. Point. Whatever you try to do, they’ll find a way to find you rude, so don’t take responsibility for that.
Moreover, let’s also remember that a less-polite “no” is still a “no”, and people need to learn to respect those, too. A sharper “no” is very often the result of 100 attempts to be polite and still be considered rude.
Sorry that’s against our/my policy.
This is the correct answer because that’s getting into borderline corporate responsibility territory. The offering of gifts and fraternizing parts of it.
I also get that sort of feedback, turned out I’m autistic.
I would go with something along the lines of: “I’m really not a fan of pictures”, and when it comes to such an invite, “That’s very kind of you, I’ll see if I have time” (if you want to let them down lightly).
I’ve used the last one before, and had people (naturally) ask me again if I already know if I have time a day or a few days later.
I tell people: I’m sorry, I rarely take or appear in photos, it’s not something i’m comfortable with. if they press, I explain that it’s not them, it’s me, and mind their own business.
"I have a problem with establishing boundaries.
I’m a private person. That’s very often misinterpreted as being arrogant and feeling superior to others. I’m not, I just wish to be left alone, but people still feel disrespected and it’s tiring to be constantly explaining yourself. And I don’t understand why I have to explain myself constantly."
Maybe say something along the lines of this.
“Sorry, I don’t get paid enough to afford a phone.” /s
