• Andy@slrpnk.net
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    17 days ago

    While I wouldn’t wish this on anyone, it’s amazing how self-destructive this is. Greta is an internationally famous activist. Flagrantly violating and abusing a person with world renown - along with dozens of other activists - is a radically stupid way to hasten international isolation.

    It is well known by most in Israel that the country simply cannot function in isolation. It will lead to collapse. In this, they are giving the flotilla far more power to eventually overthrow the ruling regime.

    • plz1@lemmy.world
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      17 days ago

      They just assume Uncle Sam will bail them out, no matter what. They are not wrong, much to the frustration of a large portion of the US population.

          • PhilipTheBucket@quokk.au
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            17 days ago

            I actually don’t think that’s true. One of the rare bright spots in Trump’s generally unbroken record of catastrophe is that he is so unpredictable, and generally gives so little of a shit what happens to anyone outside himself, that the chances of Israel suffering some kind of great consequence and the US not bailing them out as we always do are greatly increased right now I think.

            Also, yes, I think this is possibly the greatest fuckup Israel could possibly have committed right now. It may be what finally turns the tide against them, after so many decades of nothing. Outside of literally nuking Gaza or Iran or something, I honestly can’t think of anything worse for them than physically brutalizing a universally popular Western media personality for literally no reason at all.

            • MisterOwl@lemmy.world
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              16 days ago

              Problem is, she’s not popular with the type of people who vote for Trump. His demographic would take Israel’s side on this one.

              • PhilipTheBucket@quokk.au
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                16 days ago

                I wasn’t really thinking of them as part of “the Western world” tbh. I do understand that there’s a loud contingent for whom she’s just a stupid loudmouth FEMALE, maybe that is a fly in the ointment of my argument. I do think it’ll still have a pretty significant impact.

      • chilicheeselies@lemmy.world
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        17 days ago

        Thats on borrowed time. Money to isreal is one of the only issues left and right agree with. Someone is going to take advantage of that eventually and isrela is gonna get disconnected from the US teet

        • 4am@lemmy.zip
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          17 days ago

          I know you are probably American, so am I.

          We need to stop calling the Democrats the “left” party. They’re not.

          • nogooduser@lemmy.world
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            16 days ago

            Isn’t it relative though? They’re left of the Republicans so they are the left most choice Americans have.

            • newfie@lemmy.ml
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              16 days ago

              No because left means anti-capitalist. The Democratic Party is not anti-capitalist. Therefore, the Democratic Party is not a left party.

              However, they are a neoliberal party. Which, when compared to the Republican Party’s existence as a fascist party, does certainly make the Democrats preferable. But just because they are preferable does not mean they are left

        • arrow74@lemmy.zip
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          16 days ago

          If only it were that simple. The US still has an insanely powerful military. Historically a nation in decline, with an unpredictable leader, and a strong military is not very good for the world

          • redsand@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            16 days ago

            Rapidly shrinking and disabling that military. None of it matters though. We picked a doomsday, AI weapons.

    • kadu@scribe.disroot.org
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      17 days ago

      While I wouldn’t wish this on anyone, it’s amazing how self-destructive this is. Greta is an internationally famous activist. Flagrantly violating and abusing a person with world renown - along with dozens of other activists - is a radically stupid way to hasten international isolation.

      You’d be correct most of the time, but this is Israel we are talking about. They know there won’t be any consequences because claiming they did something wrong must mean you’re a nazi, and even if you get over that, daddy USA is there to protect them anyway.

      Israel could livestream a soldier killing Greta and they would face no consequences whatsoever.

      • Kyrgizion@lemmy.world
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        17 days ago

        They’ve gone so far over every red line that it literally doesn’t matter anymore at this point. They’re literally destroying an entire population - genocide - in full view of the world. What is some maltreatment of an activist in the face of all that? If indiscriminately bombing preschools and blowing up children with drones doesn’t manage to do it, what will?

    • NABDad@lemmy.world
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      17 days ago

      There are reports from American doctors who worked in Gaza of Palestinian babies being regularly shot in the head.

      That was reported during the Biden administration.

      Israel is murdering babies, and it hasn’t affected their support. Why would this matter?

      • humanamerican@lemmy.zip
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        16 days ago

        Palestinian babies

        Plenty of people in The WestR don’t consider them worthy of empathy, but a white woman of small stature who first became famous as a child might be a different story. We need a mass worldwide cultural shift to identifying all humans as part of the in group or we aren’t going to make it through this century.

      • Andy@slrpnk.net
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        16 days ago

        I should clarify what I mean a bit.

        I’m not saying that brutalizing Greta Thunberg is the straw that is going to break the camel’s back. I’m saying that it’s an escalation of a pattern of behavior that I think is very likely leading toward a collapse of the zionist project at some point in the next decade.

        The testimony of those doctors is absolutely part of the same pattern of behavior. And while a lot of folks have looked at the continuing genocide and concluded that clearly, nothing has mattered and nothing will, I believe it has, and it will.

        It’s hard to describe succinctly, but Israel today is far, far, FAR weaker than Israel 5 years ago. There is an inertia that lets them feign invincibility, but the country is truly in times without precedent. The longest war since its establishment was 118 days in '82. So much of the assumptions on which Israel relies – constant readiness, bipartisan US support, the total support of Europe, constant Jewish immigration, a strong labor force, a booming tourism industry – is in shambles. Internal divisions are rending their society apart. Their economy, international influence, and social institutions are in crisis.

        In this context, this continued loss of an ability or willingness to be discrete in their atrocities really does bolster my conviction that in the next five years the country is going to collapse.

        Unlike many, I don’t say this lightly or with glee. I just say it because it’s what I foresee.

    • acargitz@lemmy.ca
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      17 days ago

      Remember when Elon Musk did a nazi salute on the world stage for all to see? Remember how we were trying to rationalize what the hell he was thinking? The simplest answer is that nazis at some point just can’t help themselves and they end up saluting because the love doing it, they just need to show people who they are.

      Same logic I think applies here. Yes it is self-defeating, yes, it is stupid, and yes, it is gratuitous and dangerous. But these people working Ben Gvir’s prisons? This is who they are. It’s horrifically simple. The people working the Israeli system are low level functionaries of apartheid. These are not people who think in terms of strategy etc. If had the capacity to think like that they wouldn’t be there. It’s as simple as that.

    • FireRetardant@lemmy.world
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      17 days ago

      With some of the politicians in power these days, it will be pushed as finally putting an end to her climate lies or some other bullshit culture war topic.

    • mrdown@lemmy.world
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      17 days ago

      It’s not. Nothing will change, the west will keep supporting israel while pretending not to

    • sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      17 days ago

      Genuienly, how is it self destructive?

      Is this the red line that’s going to result in…

      … anything negative happening to Israel?

      Probably not, no.

      What, is somebody go to war with Israel and the US over Greta, not hundreds of thousands being starved shot blown up and lit on fire?

    • prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      17 days ago

      It is intentional. They want to flaunt their power. Look at what we can do and nobody will stop us.

    • scarabic@lemmy.world
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      17 days ago

      You make a good point. I think sadly it will not rise to the point of actual effect. It will inflame people who support her, and those folks are likely already inflamed over Gaza. Many others don’t give a shit about her or actively hate her, and they will either gloss over this or say “that’s what you get” or even “good.”

      My own mother, who is a feminist and wildlife advocate, loves to repost FB memes about her being an unrealistic virtue signalling twat who perfoms a low-carbon image while still not living up to the humble standards of the elbow-grease-powered older generations. It’s sad. Greta is incredibly polarizing, and some people just hate her for being young and idealistic.

      On the whole I don’t see this affecting anything. We live in an era of mutually exclusive mental models of reality and they can be incredibly well insulated.

    • Sasha [They/Them]@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      17 days ago

      There’s also a considerable portion of the world who hates Greta and is probably cheering them on. The first news story I saw pop up about Greta being kidnapped said Israel was doing the world a favour…

    • 52fighters@lemmy.sdf.org
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      16 days ago

      We also have no evidence any of this happened. It is easy to make propaganda when we want to believe it.

    • guy@piefed.social
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      17 days ago

      It is also probably not true. Especially if one consider what you pointed out

  • boonhet@sopuli.xyz
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    17 days ago

    She’s still a little kid. They made her suffer.

    I think that’s needlessly infantilizing her. She’s 22. She’s not a “little kid”. I think she’s old enough for her opinions to carry weight, so how is she a “little kid”?

      • boonhet@sopuli.xyz
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        17 days ago

        I’m not going to take political opinions from a 3 year old, which is about what I’m thinking when someone says “little kid”. Teenagers, like she was when she got famous, can have enough context about the world that their opinions, particularly about things like sustainability, equality, etc, are valid.

        • sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          16 days ago

          I mean, I feel you, I remember aggroing over verbiage like that when I was younger, but as I am now approaching my upper 30s, I find myself referring to basically 25 yos and under as ‘kids’, its not necesarrily always meant in a demeaning, infantilzing way, can be meant more in the sense of…

          … ‘has their whole life ahead of them still, it shouldn’t be marred or maimed or traumatized this early’ /

          / ‘they are adults technically yes, but they have far less experience than most other adults’ /

          / ‘they are too young to be beset by such cruelty and hardship, there should be other adults being better adults such that these awful things do not happen.’

          I guess what I am trying to say is it becomes a kind of genuine, broad protective connotation, not trying to be belittling, moreso a lament that the world has failed.

          Maybe call it a bungled attempt at intergenerational solidarity.

          • boonhet@sopuli.xyz
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            16 days ago

            The thing is, she wasn’t just called a kid, but a “little kid”.

            Sure, I’d call early 20s kids too. Hell, I’m a kid, I’m only turning 30 this year. But I wouldn’t call someone a “little kid” once they hit their teenage years. The “little” is what makes the difference in tone. Could’ve said “she’s just a kid” and it would’ve been a believable attempt at intergenerational solidarity.

            • SilentStorms@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              16 days ago

              Keep in mind that we’re talking about a translation here. The phrase quoted might not have the same connotations in Turkish as it does in English.

    • BlameTheAntifa@lemmy.world
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      16 days ago

      I absolutely think of 22 as a little kid, but I was there when the last Woolly Mammoth died, so it’s somewhat relative.

      • boonhet@sopuli.xyz
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        16 days ago

        Idk, to me “little kid” means “not in school yet”. It’s the “little” that makes the difference, compared to just calling someone a kid or kiddo.

      • themachinestops@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        16 days ago

        Well someone who is above 40 will probably think of her as a little kid while someone who 28 for example will probably think that they are close in age. Though this doesn’t matter no one deserves to be treated like this regardless of age.

        • lolcatnip@reddthat.com
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          15 days ago

          I’m 46. Nobody over the age of 12 is is a “little” kid to me. I can’t imagine ever calling a legal adult a little kid.

    • fishos@lemmy.world
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      17 days ago

      Depends on how old the person saying that. I’m only in my late 30’s and anyone in their early 20’s does feel like a kid. Yes, 22 is an adult, but you’ve barely just scratched the surface of life experiences.

      • unconsequential@slrpnk.net
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        17 days ago

        I agree. There are also a lot of older people on the flotilla and Greta’s age and mannerism could easily lead someone to refer to her in this framing. There are probably people on those boats who have grandkids her age and absolutely have kids her age or older.

      • boonhet@sopuli.xyz
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        17 days ago

        Thing is, the older people get, the more selfish they seem to get too. The entire world burning down in 10 years doesn’t matter if you’re 98. So more life experience isn’t automatically more credible.

        • fishos@lemmy.world
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          16 days ago

          That’s a bullshit generalization, or “stereotype”. Jane Goodall just died at a ripe old age and she was a saint. You’re not debating, just throwing bullshit assumptions out and acting like you just wrote a thesis paper on experience.

      • BangCrash@lemmy.world
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        16 days ago

        I feel that anyone in their 30s is a child.

        You’ve only had 15 years at being an adult what would you know

  • hcf@sh.itjust.works
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    16 days ago

    For those of you doubting the claims for lack of evidence, stating that you’ll “wait for the facts” or evidence before allowing yourslf to be outraged—

    Where is your outrage for the countless other people who were there who personally testified to being beaten, abused, and paraded around like trophies?

    There are already multiple interviews with Chris Smalls, a black American labor organizer, who directly confirmed that he had been beaten, choked, packed like a sardine into a small cell, sleep deprived, strip searched, and completely brutalized by the Israeli navy and prison system.

    Ask yourself—why does this need to have happened to the appropriately aged, white, European female on a 4k, live streamed or recorded feed with corroborating testimony by the Israelis and the national newspapers of the country of origin of the supposed victim—why is that the bar you’ve set for credulity?

    What does that say about you or your reaction to the situation?

    Wake. Up.

    Fuck the details, fuck the squabbling over what constitutes “roughness” versus physical assault. Fuck the inclination to want to hear “the other side” of the story. Things are going horribly wrong in Israel/Palestine—in a place that we’ve all been told over and over is supposed to be demonstrably above reproach. If even half these claims are true—if even a single one of them is true—what GOOD is it preserving the supposed beacon of democracy in the middle east when they treat foreigners this way?

    Even if you think these activists are mentally unwell, or menaces, or being performative, or just doing this for “selfies”—so what? We all know these activists are obviously not terrorists and at least some of them genuinely believe what they are doing. None of this justifies their treatment. Nothing justifies the richest and proudest countries on earth—however much you might agree with that claim—what GOOD is that if our prisons condemn people to absolute squalor and abandonment to the whims of their guards?

    HOW is this any different from the indignity camps? These peoples possessions were seized as trophies , their clothes taken, their bodies crammed together like chattel. Do there need to be ovens for there to be discernable lines? Must you feel the radiant heat on your own brows before you’ll indulge the sensation that something isn’t right here?

    Wake. Up.

      • HellsBelle@sh.itjust.works
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        16 days ago

        At this point in time everything Israel and Netanyahu do is sus, so ‘waiting for the facts’ is just an excuse to do nothing.

          • Ilandar@lemmy.today
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            16 days ago

            Shaming others on social media, of course. How very brave and noble of them!

            • MehBlah@lemmy.world
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              16 days ago

              Mental masturbation is it? Let me assure you that you can’t shame these people. They have none along with no empathy.

        • ynthrepic@lemmy.world
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          16 days ago

          So let’s spread potential misinformation instead! Banzai!

          (There’s enough evidence of Netanyhau and Israel’s atrocities not to have to potentially make shit up.)

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              15 days ago

              Indeed, but that isn’t my primary concern, since we have as much responsibility to call out their bullshit. Problem is that the media gets bored after one pass and never tried to correct the record.

              A responsible CNN for example would call Trump out at every opportunity during live presentations and not broadcast anything pre-recorded that Trump says that doesn’t have a basis in fact or hold any value to the public otherwise (like trump rambling nonsense reveals his worsening senility, which is handy to know).

              FOX News isn’t even worthy of criticism it’s so utterly captured by the conservative propaganda machine.

        • RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz
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          16 days ago

          For some, I guess it could be. I just personally prefer for more concrete info for most stuff.

            • RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz
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              16 days ago

              The comment above mine was trying to call out people who want to wait for facts. I just shared my opinion on it. This is not a very high barrier platform lol

      • TheDannysaur@lemmy.world
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        15 days ago

        I’m never going to say don’t wait for facts.

        But the issue is that “the facts” can take years to assertain… Sometimes there’s a lot of damage that can be done.

        It’s a delicate balance. People weaponize “wait for the facts” to just delay and dull the impact. Like most things, it’s not black and white.

        I don’t think saying “most” is the best application here.

      • grrgyle@slrpnk.net
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        15 days ago

        Well yeah, but we’ve got plenty of facts already. Decades of facts, in fact.

        It’s like climate change. Yes, we’re constantly learning new things, but the fact that we are in crisis is not disputable.

        We have more than enough facts to condemn and convict Israel and Netanyahu of crimes against humanity.

          • grrgyle@slrpnk.net
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            15 days ago

            Oh well that specifically wait and see, sure. But obviously it shouldn’t move the needle on your opinion of the state of Israel and their unconscionable siege of Gaza, is what I meant.

      • Paragone@lemmy.world
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        16 days ago

        This is OLD news, their genociding has been going-on for years, now.

        https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6669/Euro-Med-Monitor:-Israel’s-brutality-in-Gaza-surpasses-all-recent-forms-of-terrorism

        “comically”, the Jewish book of Jeremiah, & the Jewish book of Isaiah, both speak of Israel turning anti-God, & then getting G-D’s wrath torching it…

        IF that biblical-rule still holds, THEN Netanyahu’s “Israel” is getting torched, soon.

        Simply wait & see: if that torching does happen, then their God made it happen, according to their scripture, right?

        Here’s facts, for the ideological to ignore/deny: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1422308/palestinian-territories-israel-number-fatalities-and-injuries-caused-by-the-israel-and-hamas-war/


        Israeli identity is rooted on genociding/exterminating multiple-nations, thousands of years ago:

        https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+20%3A17&version=CJB orders the EXTERMINATION of 6 nations, & another of their books identifies that it was 7 exterminations, not 6, they were to enforce.

        Genociding/exterminating/holocausting isn’t a new behavior for Israel.

        Doing it in the name of “zionism” is new, but genociding isn’t new.

        I’d never have guessed this, having grown-up in 2 religions: medical-science & Catholicism,

        but the book “The Alphabet Versus the Goddess” by Leonard Shlain identified that the original holocausting was done by the Jews, & I went & checked in the bible, & yep… there it was…

        what Shlain didn’t notice, probably because of being Jewish, was that the Catholic Inquisitors were Latin-educated, which also corroborates his point that getting populations to be left-hemisphere-dominant forces ideological-rabies…


        What is the root-cause, though? Want experience-induced-undersanding which vastens one’s mind?

        Work-through, not-merely-read, it is the DOing which produces the experience-of-sentience-transformation, Betty Edwards’ “Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain, the 4th, Definitive Edition”, but use charcoals, which makes it much easier to experience the hemisphere-dominance-shift…

        See this gallery?

        https://www.drawright.com/before-after

        That SHOWS the difference-in-MIND of hemisphere-dominance-shift: it is EVIDENCE.

        Being an autistic blockhead, it took me 3y, not 5d, to experience that shift, because fighting the woodenness-of-my-brain made me want to scream…

        Anyways, all who pretend that “there is no evidence for hemisphere-dominance-shift”, are people who won’t do the experiment, so … they can shove their ideology … wherever their egos are, to keep their egos company.

        : p

        Ideology, specifically symbol-anchored ideology, is prone to rabies/genociding, exactly as Shlain identified, throughout human history.

        R-Mind isn’t prone to rabies/genociding.

        Exactly as Marshall McLuhan, the ultra-genius who forsaw telework around 1953, it isn’t possible for people who grew-up literate to understand what illiterate-culture’s story-river sentience is, or means…

        His stupendous insight is embodied in “The Medium Is The mAssage”, strange-capitalization is mine, but the spelling is his!

        The medium of electric-technology, as he called it, is modular, & it forms minds into modularity!

        The medium of story-river isn’t modular, & forms minds into holding-onto eternal story-river, because that’s their greatest treasure: it is who they are that they are holding-onto!

        There’s no way to imagine being in sooo-different a kind of sentience.

        Precisely the same impossibility-of-understanding-the-difference is true, with hemisphere-dominance-shift: it isn’t possible to imagine within-1-sentience-kind, what any other-sentience-kind means/is/feels-like!

        Hofstadter’s “Godel Escher Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid” was also on this single point, from a totally-different angle:

        Formal-systems, ideologies, prejudices, & “religions”, all are AXIOM-BASED knowing: and evidence is powerless to falsify them!

        One has to choose between 2 mutually exclusive knowing-paradigms: self-consistency/axiom-based, … XOR … completeness/universe-centered.

        Godel’s Theorem of Incompleteness mathematically proved that self-consistency CANNOT be complete-knowing of universe!


        Anyways, back to sentiences:

        IF one never even experiences one’s own brain’s hemisphere-dominance-shift, THEN one dies ignorant of AN ENTIRE DIMENSION of one’s own sentience!

        The fact that alphabetic-language/left-hemisphere-polarization also consistently produces more genociding, builds on that as evidence that limiting ourselves to a specific-subset-of-our-potential creates distorted-psyche… & distorted-behavior/society.

        I ask everyone, as Betty Edwards asked everyone, please DO THE EXPERIMENT, & EXPERIENCE the resultant sentience-shift, your own self, & KNOW what that sentience-shift feels-like,

        & when one does, THEN Shlain’s book turns into fluorescent, & screaming, warning, about the consequences of blocking-out the other-half of our brains.

        People who experience both kinds of sentience, regularly, don’t do what the ideologues are doing with our world!

        That the mode-of-mind that the polarized-in-symbols people are demonstrating, with its ideological-genociding, is a distortion.

        It is a mind-distortion that WE have been educated into!

        Cut the root of the distortion, by directly-experiencing it oneself!

        Here: I’ll give you the links to the books, themselves… ( none of these are “affiliate” links: machiavellianism-narcissism can go eat rocks : )

        https://www.drawright.com/bettys-books
        https://www.drawright.com/try-an-exercise
        https://www.kobo.com/us/en/ebook/drawing-on-the-right-side-of-the-brain
        
        https://www.kobo.com/us/en/ebook/the-alphabet-versus-the-goddess-the-conflict-between-word-and-image
        
        No ebook version for McLuhan's stunningly-important insight, so here's the paperback: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=marshall+mcluhan+medium+massage
        
        ditto for GEB: https://www.amazon.com/G%C3%B6del-Escher-Bach-Eternal-Golden/dp/0465026567/
        

        ( for both the paperbacks, I read the original edition, decades ago, so I hope that you’re getting a version that hasn’t pruned-out any of the important stuff! GEB, the 2nd edition adds an explanatory preface, so that’s the only change, but for McLuhan’s, I’ve no idea what changed between editions )

        Anyways, genociders gaslighting about what they’re doing, as Russia has been demonstrating, & Israel has been demonstrating, & as the US of A will shortly be more-completely-demonstrating, once Trump stops vascillating in his nature/unconscious-mind, & becomes like Putin & Netanyahu completely ( might take only weeks/months, now, for that transformation to complete ) is well-established and normal among our world’s left-hemisphere-polarized minds,

        AND evidence showing what’s actuality, is abundant, including before-after video of Palestinian cities.

        Reject evidence if you want, & pretend that no evidence counts unless it is … authorized by the gaslighters who’re doing the genociding, if that’s what “standard” you hold to be true:

        I’ve encountered enough people who do that that now I know it’s a real thing…

        I’ve also encountered the ones who insist that unless Israel authorizes Palestinian-deaths to be actual, they they’re only lies/delusions made-up to falsely-accuse Israel.

        Sorry, but the photographic & video-evidence has been falsifying that gaslighting all along, & I’m not obedient to such evil-machiavellianism, anymore: age has benefits, including spine-produced-by-cynicism.

        _ /\ _

      • hcf@sh.itjust.works
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        16 days ago

        You completely misunderstood my point or have lead clogging your ears.

        How many facts are enough facts? Mm? All the facts? Not a single fact missing, not a single rock left unturned before reaching a conclusion?

        At what angle does the sun have to reach before you conclude it’s daytime? Do you need it to reach its peak, at noon, and feel the warmth on your skin? Does it need to completely dip below the horizon for you to concede a day has passed? Of course, at that point you’ll surely say, “Ah ha! See! The sun is no longer in the sky and so it is not daytime!”

        It seems that you believe conclusions only arrive from deduction. That’s a cowardly way of rolling about in this world, since all your conclusions must be guaranteed rather than reasoned through logical inference.

        “Sensible”—ha! Thinking by “sense” alone squanders the powers of reason wherein conclusions may be formed at the risk of not yet being fully grounded in immediate observation, which is how I can confidently infer—despite the thorough stone turning upon which you’d undoubtedly insist—that you are not a sex-haver.

      • IndustryStandard@lemmy.world
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        15 days ago

        Not if Israel is not allowing in journalists. Every testimony against Israel is 100% true because they refuse to let people check.

          • DarthFreyr@lemmy.world
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            15 days ago

            Honest question: is that not just being complicit in their cover up? If they say nothing happened and nobody is allowed in to verify anything, then you say nothing has been verified yet so you’ll assume nothing has happened, it’s that not just doing exactly what they want? How are you supposed to prevent atrocities if all they have to do is deny and refuse outside observation for you to remain inactive?

      • Trainguyrom@reddthat.com
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        15 days ago

        Funny how people did the exact same thing regarding the concentration camps the Nazis operated. People chose not to believe the reports they heard from the inside regarding the horrendous and deadly conditions. They “waited for the facts” which of course did not come out until after several years of grinding gruelling war, and well after the final solution began and the gas chambers were operational.

        There’s evidence enough as it all stands right now to know that Greta is being tortured and abused, and her human rights violated, as we know so many Palestinians have already been for decades and continue to be every day. Hell, the Israeli officials are constantly publicly bragging about the violations of human rights and international law they’re committing, so maybe even listen to them when they do so?

    • 0x0@lemmy.zip
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      15 days ago

      live streamed or recorded feed

      I doubt you’ll find those… they’re not stupid.

      • hcf@sh.itjust.works
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        15 days ago

        Although I disagree, my point was more so a rhetorical one about the cynical/skeptical people chiming in to assert an absurdly high bar for people to clear in order for any concern about the current state of affairs in Israel to merit attention.

    • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
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      16 days ago

      Where is the outrage over the hostages Hamas has taken and have beaten and raped? If you’re outraged over unconfirmed reports of a person being treated this way, shouldn’t you also be outraged that Hamas does these things? Or is acceptable to treat people of certain ethnicities in this way?

        • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
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          15 days ago

          Alleged by the UN, which employed members of Hamas. Their whole approach to this conflict is basically the same as Trump’s approach to the Epstein files. Say anything and everything to avoid questions about their relationship with Hamas.

          • goferking (he/him)@lemmy.sdf.org
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            15 days ago

            which employed members of Hamas

            Alleged only by Israel

            Their whole approach to this conflict is basically the same as Trump’s approach to the Epstein files. Say anything and everything to avoid questions about their relationship with Hamas.

            Glad you acknowledged how Israel and it’s supporters act in this genocide.

      • pahlimur@lemmy.world
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        16 days ago

        I dont have words for how stupid your take is. Like I can’t think of a way to describe it you, because this is so intellectually shallow that it would take to long to even get you to understand that two things can be true at the same time.

        • insight06@lemmy.world
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          16 days ago

          Here’s a few words for their post that you can borrow: whataboutism, propaganda, tu quoque, bad faith.

        • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
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          15 days ago

          From Hamas official statements. They hold civilians hostage which is a war crime. They’ve massacred villages which is genocide.

          Do you deny Hamas committed genocide? Are you a genocide denier?

          • Galactose@sopuli.xyz
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            15 days ago

            Armed resistance ain’t genocide homeboy. Israeli targetted civilian population, used white-phosphorous & counter-bombardment in a densely-populated area.

            Hamas targetted military personnel.

      • hcf@sh.itjust.works
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        15 days ago

        Lol, you’re just too illiterate to want to read anything longer than two sentences long.

        Lazy fuck.

    • whyNotSquirrel@sh.itjust.works
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      17 days ago

      I think there were already plenty of reasons before that, so the condition is unnecessary here.

      edit: maybe you really meant if(true) so it’s fine.

      • SpontaneousCombustion@lemmy.world
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        17 days ago

        Yeah, you’re right. This isn’t the only reason to “fuck Israel”. There are a lot of reasons. It’s lost the right to be a country.

        • Taldan@lemmy.world
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          17 days ago

          It’s lost the right to be a country

          That seems rather extreme. It’s never really been a thing to wipe out other warmongering, genocidal countries. Why them?

          • SpontaneousCombustion@lemmy.world
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            17 days ago

            Indeed. Why them.

            How about a man-made famine. How about supporting illegal settlements. How about cutting off any hope of an independent state.

            If any country did what they are doing to Palestinians, we’d call it a holocaust.

          • Danquebec@sh.itjust.works
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            16 days ago

            Something very similar was seriously considered for Germany at the end of WW2. Basically, wipe out all industry of Germany, make it an agricultural nation, and skilled workers can migrate to other countries. That’s about as close as it gets to remove a country.

            With that said, I believe Israel should be allowed to continue existing. But it should go trough a process like de-Nazification.

          • acargitz@lemmy.ca
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            16 days ago

            They have lost the right to an exclusive ethnostate, just like the Afrikaners lost theirs. They should have every right to leave peacefully in a post apartheid democratic country with the same rights as their Palestinian fellow citizens.

          • Tollana1234567@lemmy.today
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            16 days ago

            well it was never thier country to begin , the allies forcibly extirpated the palestinians and gifted them a country they dint establish at all.

  • LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    Idk why this is treated as though its so inconceivable. Greta is hated by conservatives around the world. Most countries have already condemned Israel. They only care what Trump’s regime thinks. Their prisons are notorious centers of physical emotional and sexual torture. This is relatively mild treatment in comparison to many of the accounts I’ve read. It’s still awful, but if they were going to invent a story about how vile the Israeli prison guards were, this wouldnt be noteworthy in any way. Barely even scratches the surface of the things that happen in those prisons.

    • Lumisal@lemmy.world
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      16 days ago

      English really needs to stop calling the right wing “conservatives”. We don’t call them that in other languages, and they literally don’t try to conserve things, but instead always seek to destroy.

      • Zombiepirate@lemmy.world
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        16 days ago

        I prefer “reactionary,” because it accurately describes their political philosophy and tactics.

        Also, it really pisses them off.

      • Axolotl_cpp@lemmy.ml
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        16 days ago

        Not all the right wing is conservative of course and you are right about it, but you are wrong about the meaning of conservative, being a conservative mean those who in politics uphold the value of tradition, oppose any progressive ideology, and aim to preserve traditional social and political structures

        • BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today
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          16 days ago

          At their core, Conservatives are cowards, afraid of EVERYTHING: Democrats, Liberals, Minorities, other religions, other countries, poor people, women, women’s private parts, gays, and anyone else who wants society to improve their lives.

          Conservatives are fully satisfied with the way things are, and are terrified that any changes in society would be at the expense of the superior situation that they have created for themselves over centuries.

          Their overwhelming need for control over all else has allowed corruption in every form to take root, and they feel far less need to end that, than their need to punish their perceived enemies.

          So the result is the MAGA Party, whose primary function is to support the concepts of greed, treason, racism, corruption, incompetence, ignorance, intolerance, and pedophilia.

        • krooklochurm@lemmy.ca
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          16 days ago

          This is a terribly written comment… There is a better way to say what you’re trying to say. I think. I’m not 100% on what your point really is.

          • TWeaK@lemmy.today
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            16 days ago

            Their point is right there taking up half the comment:

            being a conservative mean those who in politics uphold the value of tradition, oppose any progressive ideology, and aim to preserve traditional social and political structures

            In other words, they’re “conserving” traditional values.

            However this isn’t really true, and @Lumisal@lemmy.world is correct that this isn’t really what they’re doing. It’s how they think they’re behaving, but they have a distorted view on history and see it through rose tinted glasses, often trying not to conserve but to “restore” society to some half-cocked version that never really existed.

            • BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today
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              16 days ago

              Absolutely true, but all of that is just the marching orders from the leadership to keep the rubes occupied and distracted, while they fulfill whatever personal agendas they have, mostly stealing as much as possible, but also committing treason, getting their rocks off abusing people, and kissing their Fuhrer’s stinky ass.

    • TheObviousSolution@lemmy.ca
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      16 days ago

      Presumably because anyone with half a brain would realize that she should have gotten a far more diplomatic treatment regardless of how much of a genocidal asshole they were. The fact that she is getting treated this way shows how far Israel has devolved to and how much more people people should be protesting any interaction with the country.

      Unfortunately, it isn’t the only Middle East country who behaves like shit, whom people in other countries have protested, and whom their governments don’t care. But at least the fiction of what Israel was trying to project itself as has toppled considerably.

      • LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        16 days ago

        Of course she deserved better treatment. So did Sophie Scholl. It’s just very odd to act like this is not a believable thing that Israel, famed mass murderers of children, would do.

        Israel hasn’t devolved, the state was founded on acts of colonialist genocide. This is what the state of Israel has always been.

        • T156@lemmy.world
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          16 days ago

          At the same time, she is also a public figure. If they had treated her well, they would have less of a leg to stand on. Whereas mistreating her just raises the question that if they are treating a relatively known public figure in that way, what happens to the less-known people, who don’t have as much of a platform to speak out on.

    • mrdown@lemmy.world
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      16 days ago

      They abused her less than some other people so it is ok. What kind of dumb logic is that?

      • LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        16 days ago

        Where did i say it was okay? It is abhorrent. I said that if they were going to invent a story about her graphic torture, this abuse is comparatively minor compared with other accounts from Israeli prisons.

    • hcf@sh.itjust.works
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      16 days ago

      And Greta isn’t the only person claiming that they did awful, abusive, hateful things. Chris Smalls got it, too.

      Chris Smalls gave a chilling interview with Amy Goodman where he basically said that the Israelis treated him worse than he’s been treated in his entire life as a black man in America. That’s saying a lot.

      The full interview.

    • ThunderQueen@lemmy.world
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      16 days ago

      There have been a lot of libs coming over to lemmy ever since the crackdowns on reddit. Among… Others

      • knowone@slrpnk.net
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        16 days ago

        Yeah I’ve noticed a lot of the engagement to what’s said here is similar to r/worldnews a lot of the time. There just needs to be more communities on other instances so we don’t have to deal with the enlightened centrism that dominates reddit on here too and the libs can have their own space aswell

        • ThunderQueen@lemmy.world
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          16 days ago

          Anyone who volunteers to moderate stuff that isnt their own server is pretty sus imo. Even more so for those that do it with an iron fist

      • sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        16 days ago

        Its funny that you think I personally care about what people generally think of my opinions.

        Its terrifying that you don’t realize that anyone who downvoted that was confident the notion of me stating something that would probably eventually happen was… not likely, not the case, for some reason… but they were also too lazy to explain why they thought that.

        • BigFig@lemmy.world
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          16 days ago

          You cared enough to link back to a previous comment from 4 months ago to show everyone and say “see see I called it!”

    • Draces@lemmy.world
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      16 days ago

      You response to this news is to complain about having been down voted? I can’t imagine why

  • DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works
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    16 days ago

    Bruh, reminds me of the stories I heard about ww2 when the imperial japanese army invaded my homeland China, they would force people to kneel and sing the japanese national anthem under the threat of execution if people didn’t comply. Its so evil disgusting villainy.

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      16 days ago

      I mean no offense on the whole, but its quite ironic given the reports on how they treat Uyghur folks.

      …Kinda like Israel’s irony here. And the US, and, you know, a whole lot of countries right now. Trauma tends to get passed down, it seems.

    • hcf@sh.itjust.works
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      16 days ago

      The irony (for anyone not clear on it or not catching it) is that the Israeli military forced the captives to wrap themselves in the flag of Israel—which prominently features the star of David—so that soldiers could take pictures of them that could be circulated to humiliate the activists.

      Where else have we heard of people being forced to wear the star of David so that everyone could point and laugh and humiliated them?

      Israeli soldiers are so eager to “tea bag” their enemies with their own flag that they’re unable to see the irony.

  • MrSulu@lemmy.ml
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    16 days ago

    This is another pivotal moment. WE can speak out and make our elected officials (wherever we are in the world) KNOW that their political careers and their parties future depends upon their actions.

        • FlyingCircus@lemmy.world
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          16 days ago

          You only ever had the illusion of power. Power resides with capital, and as long as capitalists are allowed sole ownership over the means of production, the people will only ever be able to expend titanic effort gathering enough power to gain a temporary reform.

          • BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today
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            16 days ago

            Power resides with capital,

            No it doesn’t, that’s just propaganda to make us feel weak and controlled. If capital was all it took, then the American Revolution and the French Revolution would have been won by those with the most money, along with many other insurgencies throughout history.

            There are many, many examples where those with money lost their power to those without.

            • FlyingCircus@lemmy.world
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              16 days ago

              Both the American and French revolutions were bourgeoise capitalist revolutions… and neither led to significant gains of power for the people of the nations, just for the bourgeoisie who led the revolutions.

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                16 days ago

                Not the point. The assertion was that power comes from capital, and as wealthy as the Founding Fathers were, their wealth was NOTHING compared to what the British or French governments held. Being outnumbered by an angry violent mob is far more powerful than money.

                And I don’t think your statement holds with the French Revolution. The elites didn’t launch the revolution, they lost their heads to it.

                My point is that while capital certainly helps, it is not the only factor in the success of a revolution. America has nearly unlimited resources, and yet we lost both Vietnam and Afghanistan to guerilla insurgencies. Nearly all successful revolutions consisted of the powerful corrupt being crushed by their victims.

                And not all revolutions are about giving more power to the people, many are just about kicking out the corrupt criminals who are exploiting the nation. They don’t always expect that they will benefit with more power, they’re just happy that people aren’t being snatched off the streets, or tortured, or drafted into wars of economic opportunity, or starving, or the economy looted, etc. Most don’t expect to have a say in who the leaders are, they just feel like they have to be better than the current psychopaths.

        • hcf@sh.itjust.works
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          16 days ago

          Yes, but you and I have to organize in our communities where we live to make that happen.

      • hcf@sh.itjust.works
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        16 days ago

        That commenter said “we”, not “I”.

        Are you saying that we—collectively—don’t bear any democratic responsibility for the people that we elect to office? Or are you cynically implying that the original poster has no power over the situation?

        I don’t get the sense that you’re trying to attack that person, but what do you gain from public displays of cynicism to remind people that they are powerless?

        If nothing then please reconsider. 🙁