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It does not help that many new vehicles are built like shit and have complexity for the sake of complexity. Electronic door latches, pop-out door handles, having everything controlled via a clunky, outdated, atrocious GUI, etc etc. These problems are not unique to EV’s but a lot of EV’s are going to have them just because they are brand new vehicles.
I bet if they made an EV without all that crap it would be crazy reliable.
Yeah I’m sad that the rise of EV’s coincides with just how extra cars have become in recent years. If you sold me a mid 90s Honda Civic hatchback with an electric drivetrain, no internet connectivity, no electric door handles or touch screens, I’d be happy with it.
One of my retirement dreams is to build electric remakes of classic cars, complete with authentic exhaust noises
Ford has that crate electric motor that can live in front of a manual transmission
What’s it called?
oh man that would be sick! I hope you achieve your dreams.
If you make the exhaust noises a menu option I can turn off or on, I will buy one.
No, you will get a basic, simple switch. No menus. No touchscreens.
Make it a toggle switch under a cool red cover and I’m in
Yes. I change my request to this.
Make it a three position switch. On, off, and “make the noises with your mouth”
I want mine to sound like the cars from the Jetsons sometimes, and other times the sound of Snoop Dogg making car noises and giggling.
I so want to EV-ify my Honda Element. I’ve never met a vehicle that had it’s same compact/utility/ease of use combination, and Honda ain’t even making them no more…
I have a 1980’s 4x4 that needs an engine, and I am so very tempted to make it electric. It’s as bare bones as a vehicle gets.
That would be a fun project for sure. If you’ve got the funds, the time, and the space, I’d say go for it!
The bigger problem is, it’s small and light that I’m not sure it could hold the batteries.
They should be. They’re orders of magnitude less complex than ICE vehicles as far the driverrain is concerned.
One thing that I always thought as crazy was the amount of electric and electronic shit these modern EVs have. Bitch, weren’t you supposed to save battery for driving? Why are you putting a light show when I’m supposed to be focused on the road?
Eh, something like that probably draws about half a kilowatt, and it would be hard to shed all of that functionality (I think the Mitsubishi i-Miev might, but also reverse cameras are a requirement in cars now so you can’t get rid of the screen)
For comparison, my car has about a 65kwh battery. I probably use maybe 20kilowatts when driving, but there are lots of variables there. If my half-kilowatt estimate is reasonably accurate, you can run it alone for about 130 hours.
Not to mention much more affordable.
Yeah, it’s fucking dumb having all this shit added that I don’t want and I have to pay for it.
We need a new manufacturer for the common man.
Yes! A true car of the people, almost like a volkswagen!
…wait that’s a car company too? And they’re part of the problem?
Could you imagine taking an old school Square body and making lighter with the very basic modern amenities like power windows and MAYBE a basic touch screen radio. I know aerodynamics and safety are why they aren’t around but find a way to make it work and that stuff would sell to some of the more stubborn people. Like you said strip all the nonsense out and make it basic.
An EV with crank windows, a parking break lever for mad j turns, and a standard double din radio so I can upgrade it like it’s the 9ps again.
Sign me up
Dude you could fit a literal ton of batteries into a squarebody. In my 76, the engine bay has enough room to comfortably fit multiple full grown adults inside of it with the V8 engine in place. You could probably fit 3 small block V8s in there without doing anything but removing the inner fenders.
No. Same interior but with an electric motor
Imagine. No software, just a potentiometer regulating how much current goes into the engines.
That’d be one beefy potentiometer capable of handling hundreds of amps of current.
I know it wouldn’t be a potentiometer, as it is extraordinarily inefficient, but you get the idea
The pop-put door handles thing gets me. Like why do I need to push one end of the handle in, then pull it the rest of the way out on the opposite end? It’s so backwards and convoluted.
Just give me a damn handle I pull out to open the damn door. Why is it so hard?
Flush door handles improve aerodynamics by reducing drag.
That’s true, but also dumb at the same time.
The benefit of reduced drag applies regardless of mode of propulsion.
So really, it’s complexity for complexity sake.
not really, because gas engines are so inefficient outside of their ideal RPM range that a little extra drag is barely noticeable.
Hence why they have transmissions that ensure they’re in a favourable RPM range at all times.
I bet they add all that dumb shit so it breaks and you have to buy a new car after all the bells and whistles are busted and you cant open your doors or trunk, since the motor is so much more reliable and needs less maintenance.
Yeah. I like a nice big touchscreen for infotainment and navigation, but everything else should still be knobs, buttons, and sliders on the dashboard.
It’s just more pronounced in EVs right now because there’s been a huge rush to build EVs and a lot of manufacturers are in their first or second year of offering them. Tesla fares relatively well because they’ve pumped out millions of cars for several years and they focus only on EVs. Meanwhile the EV shitboxes being rushed out by Ford and Chrysler are… shitboxes.
The brand graph is useless here because many of these brands make gas and EV cars. I want to know how the Nissan Leaf fares, for example. They’ve been making it for years. Has it reached the same reliability as other Nissan cars?
As a Subaru driver, nice.
I’m a happy Toyota owner as well.
Just got a 2007 Prius with 150k on it. I’m still getting use to it, but they’re supposed to be reliable. More importantly parts are plentiful and fairly cheap.
I believe that gen engine had an issue with oil consumption due to bad rings, so keep an eye on your oil levels.
I do that anyways!
Same. Owned a Volkswagen previously and seeing the ratings difference makes me glad I changed. I was also affected by the diesel emissions scandal at VW. So, that was fun.
VW requires their mechanics get the least amount of training of any manufacture. I had a VW (pre scandal diesel) and it was very reliable - but only because I did all the work myself. When I took it in I had problems.
It seems to vary from generation to generation with them in terms of reliability. I have a 2017 6th generation golf that has been flawless for reliability so far. Apparently, the surrounding generations were not as good in that department from my understanding.
I also drive a manual and do my own maintenance like you, fwiw. So my experience may be different from the average driver.
My mom had an Audi Q5 (basically a dolled up Volkswagen Toureg) that thing was such a POS. First there was a piston issue that required warranty replacement. Then it started burning oil, and I legit question if they even actually did the piston replacement. It burned a quart every week, but by then, the warranty had expired, so she had to deal with just adding a quart every week. Then it started misfiring, had to change like 5 things out before we got it to stop. She traded it in shortly after, and bought a Toyota instead. I’d been trying to talk her into Toyota when she bought the Audi, but she wanted the fancy German car. Ended up learning the hard way why those things suck. I feel for whoever ended up buying that POS used.
Same here.
Though I wish they were more focused on full EV, rather than the hybrid models (and not even PHEV)
That Toyota 1 year service with warranty is absolutely insane. Will be my next car because of that. £250 for yearly warranty on top of £200+ servicing isn’t great.
I am interested in the differentiation between Ford/Lincoln, GMC/Chevrolet/Cadillac/Buick, and Dodge/Ram/Chrysler, given that each of those groupings is the same manufacturer. And in GM’s case especially they have multiple vehicles under all three marquees that are the same damn car underneath with different badges and trim colors.
Not surprised to see Chrysler at the bottom, though.
What a pile of crap the U.S. auto manufacturers are. They purposefully build cars that break to increase revenue.
It is wrong to see that as a “US car manufacturers” problem. That mistakenly implies that other corporations would not behave this way or that this is anomalous behavior. This is how monopolies behave and it is the end state of any insufficiently regulated market.
Probably down to factory quality control and parts sourcing. Sure most of the parts are coming out of China. But, companies can get better or worse quality parts for more or less money. And once those parts are put in a car, you can have differing levels (read: costs) of the work being double checked.
Clearly, all those brand new Mercedes-Benz drivers are regretting not opting for the used 2008 Hyundai Santa Fe they could have had. Live and learn…
I’ve been in a few newer A class vehicles. My god. It’s like being the the back of a fiat panda ride quality wise. The amount of issues about the screens dying (Speedo, oil, everything and MOT failure) on 2 year old cars costing £700+ for whole unit replacements is insane.
Expect Hyundai/Kia trend downward for the coming years as the used market gets filled with Theta engines. Bummer since the Gamma was solid.
How’s the Kappa? Asking because I have an Ioniq Hybrid
No clue.
Honda would be higher if it weren’t for the Ridgeline.
I ❤️🔥 my Element though.
I ❤️🔥 my Element though.
I’m hoping to EVify mine. Unless Honda makes an electric one, which case they’d have my money in an instant, I just want to keep this handy compact mofo going forever.
Used to work on the line at a Honda plant building Accords and Acuras. What makes me wary of Honda cars is the fact that something like 70% of the workforce there were temps.
They have this ridiculous system, where they hire everyone as temps, and then use a lottery to bring temps into a full time position. Except that means some temps will work there for over a decade… still as temps. I talked with these guys, they exist. decade of work as temp. no healthcare, no pension, no retirement, no sick days, no nothing. miss 3 days in that decade? you’re fired.
So despite their reputation, I still put them behind Toyota, just because of that. who knows? the seatbelt you trust with your life might be installed wrong and cross threaded and just pop right out during that crash. all because they had a temp do it their first day on the line.
Glad to see Chrysler down at the bottom where they belong. My MIL’s old 200 needed a new timing belt/chain at 60k miles before it was eventually totalled out by another Stellantis product (old man backing out of his driveway into traffic in a Jeep).
I have a Mini EV… it’s been awesome. The only downside is the range is only realistically around 100mi but it’s good for most of the driving I do. Longer trips we take me wife’s car.
On my phone screen, it looked like Lotus was at the top and that didn’t seem right.
With the image compression in the thumbnail, it looked like Lada to me which had me doubly confused.
Japanese and German cars are very reliable, surprise, surprise.
Actually it’s looking like German cars are extremely bimodal.
Mercedes is 2nd from the bottom though.
Probably because they use french Renault engines. Slightly joking aside, Merc have been poor for a while. The S class is still the top tier passenger car.
Mazda here, not a single problem in 9 years… but boy do I want that ex90 when it comes out 😓
How are mini that high up? It makes no sense. The BMW minis (everything from the last 20 years) are notoriously unreliable. The old ones aren’t great either but they aren’t stand out bad for the time. Cool little cars, but complete shit mechanically.
I thought Nissan would be higher.
Nissans have been garbage since their CVT transition
Nissan only exists to give people with no money and bad credit an opportunity to buy a new car.
Of which they promptly destroy in creative ways
Kinda surprising, given that the boxer engines tend to start having serious problems at a fairly young age (…which is due to some inherent problems with boxer engine designs and the difficulty in making them sufficiently rigid). So I guess once you switch to an electric motor, Subarus suddenly have improved long-term reliability.
Subaru boxer engines are very reliable, they are just a pain to work on. The main issues Subie’s have is computer issues in warm climates.
Pre 2005 this statement would get you brigaded with head gasket issues, but yeah haven’t heard of those being a regular issue in a while.
I wonder how many of the head gasket complaints were from yobbos who kept the boost super high
They cheaped out on the head gaskets themselves in the ej25 series engines (naturally aspirated). If the gaskets are replaced with the MLS (multi-level steel) ones that came stock in the turbo models, they’ll probably last longer than the rest of the car. At some point Subaru got wise and started putting MLS gaskets in all of their engines, so it’s not really a problem anymore. As for head gaskets going on turbo subarus, I’d put that squarely on wrx’s and sti’s being some of the most abused vehicles out there.
Happened to my old 98 forrester and that thing didn’t have a turbo at all, so no idea really.
Yeah, the head gasket issues were annoying in the early 2000s.
That issue finally got fixed. My Impreza has been crazy reliable compared to every other car I’ve owned.
Oil burning is the only real issue’s they have these days. At least for Subaru.
Subaru fixed headgaskets with the new FA and FB series engines. Oil burning is typically consistent so just know how often you need to top it up if it’s a problem, or just get early oil changes. Otherwise they’re very reliable, just hard to work on.
And it’s really only the internal engine work that’s tough without pulling it. Everything else is actually pretty straightforward imo as a shade-tree mechanic
Two of the larger EV companies are new and I think both have quality control issues. I suspect that is probably the bulk of the gap. Im willing to bet that Hyundai Ioniq 5 has far fewer reliability problems than a Rivian.
Also, every Chevy Bolt ever built had a recall a couple years ago. That dragged that car’s reliability score through the mud and wouldn’t surprise me if it had an impact here too.
Hyundai as a whole probably have less issues than most. That 7 year warranty is something they don’t want to be back at the shop for.
I’m not sure about that. A few years back it was actually the case that the warranty was, weirdly, inversely proportional to the reliability. I’m not sure why, but companies like Toyota and Honda had relatively short warranties and much better reliability than companies with longer warranties.
Also Hyundai / Kia have had a what feels like a lot of misses in terms of models that were really unreliable. There was that story on Reddit years ago about how it took the dealership something like 7 engines to get the a car through the 10 year warranty. (Apparently that wasn’t that uncommon for that generation.) They’ve also had a few high profile recalls for engine failures and inordinately high failure rates on some of the non-recalled vehicles.
Hopefully they’ve improved in recent years, but last time I went to buy a car, their reliability numbers weren’t good IMO.
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I guess once you boil it down to brass tax the extra 4 year warranty only costs around 1,500. That’s to us so the cost to manufacturers is tiny.
I wish they’d link to the actual study so we can see how they determine “reliability”.
They don’t get very granular, but they give a fairly detailed overview of the methodology here:
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/who-makes-the-most-reliable-cars-a7824554938/Edit: I used to subscribe, and as a result received their surveys occasionally. They seemed pretty well done, but people are people and probably aren’t always objective in their reporting.
Yeah I saw that but again it’s very basic explanations…
We study 20 trouble areas, from nuisances—such as squeaky brakes and broken interior trim—to major bummers, such as potentially expensive out-of-warranty engine, transmission, EV battery, and EV charging problems. We use that information to give reliability ratings for every major mainstream model.
Where are they getting that information and how are they using it? This is important and their conclusion is incredibly counter-intuitive and refutes pretty much all other research I’ve seen.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
They send a survey to their subscribers.
The next paragraph states:
We weigh the severity of each type of problem to create a predicted reliability score for each vehicle, from 1 to 100. We use that information to give reliability ratings for every major mainstream vehicle. (The reliability rating is then combined with data collected from our track testing, as well as our owner satisfaction survey results and safety data, to calculate each test vehicle’s Overall Score.)
The same Consumer Reports that got sued for overstating the rollover risk of a popular SUV?
I’ll take their opinions on EV’s with a grain of salt.
Gotta love how they don’t state what the most reliable EV is, even in the Consumer Reports original article. I guess you have to pay for that info.
I think we all know what the most unreliable ones are, however
Ok even if the statistic isn’t wildly misleading. It’s not such a bad thing. How long have we been doing gas cars? How long have we been doing ev’s? How does the scale of the two match up.
Tons of resources have gone into the reliability of gas cars. EV’s do not have the same amount of time and resources pooled to it. It’s not a fatal flaw of the concept.
The internal combustion engine has been innovated and improved over a 100+ years. We’ve had plenty of time to experiment with changes and make it incredibly efficient while also addressing reliability issues caused by the engine itself. Not to mention, reliability issues are the sort of thing you find over long term use of a product, and we’re only just getting to the point where EVs have been around for long enough.
What do you mean it’s not such a bad thing? This sounds like the “it’s good for bitcoin” era of fanboyism. Shit doesn’t work and consumers are eating the costs
This is the best summary I could come up with:
CR is known for buying cars for its own test fleet, but for its annual auto reliability survey, the organization cast a wider net.
Hybrids have 19 potential trouble areas—all the above minus the charging problem—and EVs have just 12, since they go without things like internal combustion engines, fueling systems, or transmissions.
And as our data has consistently shown, reliability-minded consumers would be best served by forgoing brand new vehicles in their first model year," said Jake Fisher, senior director of auto testing at CR.
Tesla, despite a legion of horror stories, finds itself very middle of the pack in terms of overall reliability, and in general it builds dependable EV powertrains—less so bodywork, paint/trim, and climate systems.
In general, the Asian OEMs dominate the upper end of the reliability chart, although Mini, Porsche, and BMW also made the top 10.
As noted, Tesla placed pretty solidly mid-pack, along with other domestic brands like Buick, Ram, Cadillac, Chevrolet, and Dodge.
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In general, the Asian OEMs dominate the upper end of the reliability chart
Not surprising at all. If you’re buying from Western manufacturers then you are getting ripped off.
Not only EV’s, hybrid cars too!
Well that makes sense since hybrid cards have all the guts of EVs AND gas cars. More things that can break.
EVs alone have far fewer parts than can break than gas cars, and there are no explosions taking place inside EVs, so you might think they’d be simpler and more reliable.
Just the idea to have to replace a 12k $$ battery pack sends shivers down my spine. I will have to pass on that for now. + the trend with these cars being spy computers on wheels doesn’t make it a desirable vehicle for me.
Most major EVs these days have a battery management system built in to keep the battery at the temperature they like to be held at - the Nissan Leaf being the most notable exception, and yes that one does get pretty bad.
Keep in mind that these have a lot less moving parts. You don’t have a belt system with an alternator, water pump, A/C compressor (that exists but just plugs into the battery), starter motor, etc. And ICE vehicles aren’t immune to expensive repairs if the engine or transmission blows.
And at least a battery generally degrades over time rather than just going kaput all at once. If after 15 or so years my range degrades to the point where I get about half of what it was new (probably a huge exaggeration of degradation in a car with a battery management system) that’s still 125 miles. Which you get every day by plugging the car in at home. My baby will be in high school by then, she can drive the Bolt.
The tracking shit fucking sucks (I found the way to turn it off) but it’s not inherent to EVs at all.
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I wonder how much money it takes to rebuild a blown engine in a new BMW 3-Series nowadays?
Edit: so I went and had a brief look in Google. It looks like they run between $6000 and $12000 depending on how powerful the engine is. So for a base model it would indeed be somewhat cheaper.
The battery is the biggest issue for me. I will not replace my entire car because they won’t let us replace the battery.
The cars need to be repairable.
That’s not a real concern. The chances of that happening are very close to zero.
I disagree. The amount of articles regarding the subject is substantial. And the battery is lithium, so the battery will degrade. Repairability is a buying point for me.
The battery is warrantied to 100 or 150,000 miles depending on where you live. The number of people who have ever had to replace their batteries is very very small. You’re more likely to have to replace your entire engine and transmission on an ICE car. Degradation is not a serious concern with modern evs.
https://electrek.co/2023/04/25/tesla-update-battery-degradation/
It’s beautiful
This may be anecdotal or a result of them being new and having less documentation/etc, but in my experience when they do have problems it’s way more of a pain in the ass to deal with too.
I mean not surprising since we’ve had over a century of time for everyone and their uncle Bob to open an auto repair shop for traditional cars.
Much though it might seem EVs are going main stream, it’s still very much in progress and will be for quite a while. They should be treated as a new technology not an immediate replacement for all.
Thats my big concern is that GM will overdo their shift to EVs and lose some money when they overproduce them, then abandon the tech completely because “it didn’t work out” or “people didn’t want them.”
What’s easier to diagnose, your fuel pump just died or there’s a faulty diode on a board tucked up underneath literally everything?
And modern ICE cars have all those same diodes. It isn’t like you trade 2000 moving parts in an ICE vs 20 in an EV for 20 electronic parts in an ICE vs 2000 in an EV. The EVs have some extra battery conditioning electronics that ICEs don’t have and some regen braking stuff, but they also don’t have ignition timing, transmission controllers, etc. I’d venture that all washes out.
Engines have been in mass development for 100 years or so. We have learned a lot about making them reliable. They have a lot of parts, but they rarely break. Most problems on modern ICE cars is not related to the engine or transmission (oil changes are not a problem) and so you end up with most breakdowns in an EV being things common to an ICE, plus the EV specifc stuff that we haven’t figured out yet.
At least for the first 300k.miles or so. Then the ICE wears out.
Though, for the record an ev’a battery will last (at leas the last time I checked,) 100-200k miles
Which they may be using to ding EVs, even if it’s known and not really a “reliability” issue
Electronic boards pretty much never fail in cars. They have no moving parts and the chips are encased in epoxy or resin. When it fails it’s pretty much always connected sensors, cabling or fuses or other external parts. And the board can usually tell you what part if you read out the error codes.
And the board can usually tell you what part if you read out the error codes.
That’s no different than the car, basically. Mechanics don’t really independently diagnose stuff on modern cars anymore. They plug in the OBD scanner and the car tells them what might be wrong.
There is always need for a master mechanic to figure out the hard / weird stuff. But for every one of them you need 6 parts replacers to read codes.
Right, but still. It’s always some crappy electronic part that wasn’t actually tested in the real-world use case, and so the wires aren’t shielded enough or a something. It’s always the same shit. “Oh, we cheaped out on this part because reasons.”
