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The last stars will burn out in 120 trillion years
We think. We still haven’t solved things like the dark matter/energy problem. The answer to that alone could drastically change what we estimate will happen in the distant future.
Stuff only burns for so long. We might learn more about the geometry of space and that there is more out there at greater distances where maybe even other Big bangs are possible but there is a certain maximum amount of time that a star can exist.
Over the time scales of the life of a proton the maximum variability in the amount of time a star can burn is a rounding error against the scale of numbers needed to express the amount of time it takes for hawking radiation to reduce black holes to ultra long wavelengths of infrared radiation.
Yes, but we don’t have proof that universe can’t generate new matter. For all we know there is a mechanism in universe not yet observed that can create new matter out of little vacuum and more stars will keep forming.
So technically all we can say is, it’s likely that stars will die out in 1000 trillion years.
Yes, but we don’t have proof that universe can’t generate new matter.
True… we also don’t have proof there isn’t a tea pot orbiting our Sun since it’s creation, either.
However, there’s also a complete lack of evidence of it.
You cannot prove a negative. The evidence says no new matter can be created. No evidence that new matter gets created. Therefore, we work on the model of no new matter creation.
On these scales, the accuracy of our observations should reduce our confidence though. It doesn’t make sense to confidently say that, in 200 trillion years there will be no stars, because our observations of the rate of new matter creation (approximately zero) have a margin of error which allows for there to still be some
Until evidence shows otherwise, new matter being created doesnt fit our observations.
Go prove that wrong! Win yourself a Nobel prize in physics! That’s what science is about!
New matter being created with extremely low probability fits perfectly with our observations.
A teapot created with out solar system orbiting the sun fits our models, with an extremely low probability.
However, we dont work on that assumption being true.
I do also want to point out that stuff like “The conservation of energy” law, in other words, that energy cannot be created or destroyed, does not hold for our universe with our current models. An expanding universe violates the time-translation symmetry
This is our current models. This is what our current physics says. And we know it’s incomplete.
When it comes to scientific predictions, you always, always, need the caveat, “under our current model of”.
Space itself expanding doesnt, however…
So if all the existing matter came from the big Bang, is it possible to condense it all back into one place?
pretty sure that is the big crunch hypothesis
Google “big crunch hypothesis”
Sure! Big crunch is a possibility! Crunch or heat death, all matters on how much matter is in the universe.
But in this case, this “theory” has a precedent. This energy and matter we have now must have come from somewhere. Whatever your personal belief on the matter is, what’s to say that event can’t happen again? If a god created the universe, then surely he can pump some more into it.
Matter and energy can be converted. So, its possible it was never created, it just always was.
That’s something I’ll never be able to understand. Something having no beginning. Just like I’ll never be able to understand a moment before the big bang, or at the moment of the singularity, where time did could not exist. If there’s no time, how can anything, like the big bang, happen? Unfortunately the singularity is something we know nothing about whatsoever, and probably will never know.
like how we thought black holes were ever-growing inescapable masses and then we learned about hawking radiation.
I mean, have you considered that the expansion of the universe generates or increases the total energy in the universe?
As stars move apart, they gain both potential energy with respect to other stars, because greater distance from gravity sources means greater potential energy, but they also gain kinetic energy as they accelerate away from other objects. So, their mechanical energy (potential + kinetic energy) increases over time. Maybe somebody could build a clever machine out of this to harvest that energy?
You should look up Penrose’s work in conformal cyclic cosmology.
The short version is this: as the rarified universe becomes massless particles flying in all directions as space expands, it is basically the exact same conditions as the big bang. IE, when the universe fizzles out, from a different reference frame it’s still an infinite field of energy expanding out faster and faster.
Just cross out the “distance” part of interactions between particles, without humans or anything with mass really to observe or interact with anything, the relationships between photons are all that matters, and from that perspective it will be the same as the big-bang state. All that’s important to look at is the relationships between these particles, the angles between them and probability of them interacting with each other.
IIRC, the current theory is that stars do not move apart, but that space itself expands, which generates the impression that they move apart.
We also haven’t tried every possible configuration of atoms to see if anything creates a portal to an infinite energy dimension or a perpetual motion machine or something we can use to make our own stars
Infinite energy is cheating. Same with travelling backwards in time.
My intuition tells me the universe doesn’t allow cheaters.
But then I’m just an evolved bag of water cells clinging onto a clump of rock so what the fuck do I know?
Time travel is allowed for under our current models. Or rather, time travel doesn’t affect most parts of the current models, so it’s not cheating.
We can only time travel to the future or i am wrong?
Currently yes, but there’s nothing inherent in there that’s says there’s no way for us to move backwards
I once reas a theory abou you needing to go faster than the speed of light which is not possible theorically
PS: i am not a scientist i don’t know much, only some basic shit i learned for curiosity
Yeah for all we know stars are black hole poop
Nah, that’s the heavier elements.
wait, i thought the heavier elements were star poop, and black holes poop either electrons or positrons i can’t remember.
Only up to iron is star poop. Anything heavier tends to be created by novae of various sizes. Technically nothing comes from the black hole, but many of the very heavy elements are birthed along side black holes.
Gravity and time come from every black hole. Neither of those are “things” in the sense that they aren’t matter. So don’t think I’m saying that you are any kind of wrong. Perhaps “thing” might be to vague to be technically accurate, though.
Everyone here seems oblique in a vision of nothing in perspective, though. Come on, where do you think a big bang came from?
There’s a cap limit to the size of a black hole because it will pop. Moreover, “The” is rather an inappropriate reference to a big bang. You might say “our” but infinity doesn’t mean what you think it means. Not due to any “limit” but due to math through adjacent dimensions you’re only just start to deduce the “obvious” nature of and think to look at. “How” is a whole other Giggle Maestro.
If you need to understand how many dimensions there are…then you will never stop looking. Infinity is way more than we can but get a notion of.
Also see Dyson’s Eternal Intelligence:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson's_eternal_intelligence
Basically, if you assume it’s possible to upload our intelligence to a computer and run it, then you can keep the energy going to run it for a very, very long time. Well past the heat death of the rest of the universe. It depends on running things in an on and off state to conserve energy for trillions of years. Subjectively, the people in there wouldn’t notice that and would simply see their active lifespans go for trillions of years. It’s not clear what the limit would actually be.
It’s something like Zeno’s Paradox. You cut things in half each cycle, but never quite get to zero.
I see someone else is a Kurzgesagt fan https://youtu.be/VMm-U2pHrXE
I like to watch them when I need a good existential crisis
May I introduce you to exurb1a
I know him and have even read all his books
I saw that pop up as a recommendation the other day but forgot to watch it until you posted that. Cool video! Weird how they come up with this crazy shit.
I cannot express in words just how much I do not want my consciousness to persist, trapped, for trillions of years of darkness. That would be unimaginable hell.
What if there’s cookies?
I’d delete them at the end of session, like any lemming would.
For there to be cookies one must assume an eternal cookie banner / pop up telling you this site uses cookies.
There’d only be dark chocolate chip. That’s just science
with only a finite initial store of energy, only a finite number of thoughts can ever be processed. This “thermal death” of the universe prevents the infinite hibernation and computation trick from working, thus rendering Dyson’s eternal intelligence scenario impossible in a universe with a positive cosmological constant.
My disappointment is immeasurable, and my day is ruined.
Eternity would get boring, a few trillion years would give you plenty of time to not miss out on anything life has to offer
How would you know ? Maybe life really only gets interesting after trillions of years, and nobody has experienced truly great life yet, who’s to say…
that explains Pantheon really well
Thus began the Age of Fire. But soon the flames will fade and only Dark will remain.
every soul has its dark
Just like every Knight praise the sun.
Unless that Knight is onion flavored, they just die :(
Unless, of course, that onion knight has a lot of experience in other professions, in which case they can easily punch gods to death.
If only I could be so grossly incandescent!
This is the main reason why, if you come across a genie in a lamp, you should probably not wish for immortality. You’re gonna be hellafuckin bored for a loooooooong time.
I don’t want to imagine the level of procrastination I would have if I were immortal.
I would wish for a life that ends when I want it to. Like the numenoreans had in LoTR
Just one trillion years will do
Ideally our species survives and manages to send ships away from Earth well before that or you’re going to get a really warm summer eventually, followed by sitting on a charred ball of barren, airless rock for the majority of those trillion years.
From what I have read on the internet so far, it’s probably best to not wish for anything at all. Just throw it in the deepest ocean to do us all a favour.
Fuck that, I will mess with shit.
“I want all humans to be able to change sex, race or species at will.”
“Give every human being the ability to experience what someone else has experienced by pressing a small button on the top of our heads.”
“Make volcanoes erupt food. Just endless, nutritious food for everyone.”
“Babies are hatched from eggs. I dunno man, seems like it would be silly.”
“No more mosquitoes. Replace them with tiny little airplanes that sometimes circle around you and you have to swat them down like king kong.”
I suppose you could wish for all genies to be instantly annihilated. Maybe toss the GOP in there for good measure.
“Your wish shall be granted.”
genie destroys the universe
“Eh, worth it.”
If you get the chance, ask for omnipotence or to become conscious energy systems or something. You can still choose to experience being a human and having all these experiences, but you will never be stuck, you will never get bored or feel anything related to being mortal if you don’t want.
You could even choose to live a whole lifetime. Maybe billions of lifetimes, each one feeling totally and completely indistinguishable from reality, because it would be reality.
You could be experiencing that right now.
conscious energy systems or something
Like Kevin Spacey? Ew.
What about extreme longevity though
Seriously, even halfway through my expected lifespan and I’m already seeing a point where I’ll be ready to get off the ride. Not in terms of self-harm or depression, but just generally as the decades go on it gets less and less enjoyable in a broad sense.
Our brains absorb too much information and memories than our minds were meant to handle. Our emotions become an annoying liability. Our memories reveal themselves to be these tenuous and bizarre amalgamations of experiences and imagination and cannot be trusted, and maybe most annoying of all is seeing people making the same mistakes around you all the time, and tuning you out for being “old” more and more, determined to fall into the same holes and traps that could be easily avoided, but dragging all of society with them over and over. It takes away a lot of the magic of seeing the future.
Even all that would be something manageable, if I had a loooong life I would probably escape from everyone and just read in the woods or something. But holy shit it has to be alongside physical health because by far the worst, worst, worst thing about getting old is the aches and pains and minor irritations that turn into crippling infections, unhealed strains, and degrading senses.
I am quite positive that something happens after you’re dead for an infinity amount of time, no idea what, but it happened before so it stands to reason it may again, and even the slimmest chances become 100% assured after an infinite amount of time.
Why? Are you bored now? If so, why is it a problem? If not, then what’s the problem?
Spending Eternity either crushed to a point in the heart of black hole or drifting thru the darkness of space all alone with nothing to do or even anything to look at.
There’s a bit to go yet before we get there. Can I have a few hundred years more first?
Yes, but we were discussing eternity
Tangentially related great sci-fi short story: “The Last Question” by Isaac Asimov: https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~gamvrosi/thelastq.html
Thanks for that. I’ve read it before, long ago, but completely forgot about it. Still a great story.
Probably my favorite short story. This is another one of my favorites, definitely more obscure:
I feel like reading this story is an internet nerd Rite of Passage. It had a huge impact on me when I read it as a teenager and I think about it a lot.
Does thinking about the long dark make anyone else feel like they are going to vomit?
The chances of me living long enough to actually be effected by it are so slim that I’m completely unconcerned about it.
And if you could live so long it would invalidate basically everything we know of physics. So the long dark wouldn’t actually come.
Depends on what you mean by living.
I do like how you haven’t ruled it out yet.
I don’t know, I thought it was pretty fun.
Nope, I think humanity will be long gone by then, so it doesn’t really matter what happens after that.
More like head spinning, like when you look at the stars are you loose your reference frame
Why’s that? If humanity presumably nearly couldn’t be around then?
It makes me feel like all the suffering people inflict for the sake of selfishness jand greed just pointless.
We’re doing a pretty bang up job of making that one second as stupid and painful as possible.
One second of light illuminating a torture chamber
There are four lights.
coulda said trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion and saved us a little time
we still have 120 trillion years left. we can spare the time for a few extra words
No no, it will be over just like a second! Blink for 120 trillion years and you’ll miss it.
Comparison is truly the thief of joy. Of course, once we know how long the slow fade of an empty universe will last, the first thing we most do is make 120 trillion years of insane, glorious, beautiful existence seem inadequate.
No! We must be absolutely positively as terse and brief as possible. Concision is the watchword, my friends.
Why use lot words…?
Fucking this.
That’s neat, stars are just the sparks after the big bang, and “soon” that energy will be gone. Even with all the bad shit happening, it makes me happy to be alive in this beautifully short window of time in the universe, even if our little dust speck circling a spark is a bit fucked up sometimes
I think the passing of time, as in waiting, is an experience of the mind. Without a waiting mind, the length of time is just another number out there, like the distance between the edges of the universe. If after the dark finale of this universe there exists another event that spawns a conscious mind, there is no actual waiting happening between this universe bright, starry second and the next one.
Time can stretch and squish and follow physical rules, if the passage of time is an experience of the mind time itself would remain existent without minds just as real as distance and the passage of distance via movement between objects would remain without minds.
One interesting thing I heard is the DESI data from a telescope observatory in Arizona that was trying to build a more accurate map of the universe identified the dark energy acceleration as slowing. That could mean if the trend continues eventually gravity will overpower dark energy and everything collapses back together again. I don’t think it’s conclusive, but it is evidence maybe heat death isn’t an ending phase.
Reminds me of that Kurzgesagt video about Optimistic Nihilism:
“If you don’t remember the 13.75 billion years that went by before you existed, then the trillions and trillions and trillions of years that come after will pass in no time once you’re gone. Close your eyes. Count to 1. That’s how long forever feels.”
Anthropic Principle moment
Yoink
What happens after the 10^106 years of black holes?
The black holes evaporate eventually.
After that, depends on who you ask. Most physicists would say something like “as close to nothing as possible”. Penrose would say at a certain point when nothing can interact with anything else, distance loses meaning, which makes the universe and a singularity equivalent, so then things restart.
Not sure about the “restart” bit.
If it’s mathematically equivalent to the starting conditions of our universe, why would it behave differently?
I don’t think you can argue that it’s mathematically equivalent. Just because space and time become so spread that they are effectively meaningless is not the same as them having not meaningfully existed and then existing. Neither can you really say that since any baryons that have not decayed are so far apart none of them interact that they behave like the concentration of all matter in the known universe. At those scales of time I’m not even sure that there are any left.
It’s like arguing that one tiny piece of something in one place is the same as all the matter and all of space and time being in one place: it’s I guess analogous but not equivalent. I will of course caveat and say that my undergrad physics degree did not cover end of the universe timelines lol. Kurzgesagt does have a video though.
The cyclical universe approach as I understand it is predicated on an eventual big crunch which I don’t think is being argued anymore.
Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying he’s right. I just thought the objection was to the “restart bit”, and I thought that part reasonably followed if the earlier parts were accepted.
But Penrose’s Conformal Cyclic Cosmology is pretty much the opposite of a Big Crunch.
I guess I’ll have to read up. I have potentially had a long running misunderstanding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC2JOQ7z5L0
The cyclical universe approach as I understand it is predicated on an eventual big crunch which I don’t think is being argued anymore.
The universe is definitely cyclical, the only real question is: how?
There’s lots of theories: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoCYY9sa2kU
Unless it’s been disproven it’s not “not being argued anymore”
🤷🏻
Nothing really. And since nothing is happening and nothing ever changes time itself becomes meaningless.
Yes.
Alternately, no.
From what I understand, the universe would just be in equilibrium. Nothing but cold particles floating around.
A recent discovery might suggest that we happen to be in a big void, and that a great amount of the universe is much much denser than where we are or what we have observed. If true, Big Crunch time bby
Well then I’m just going to enjoy the absolute fuck out of Hawking radiation and Mr pouty pants can sulk for 10^elebenty eons.
Black holes aren’t “dark”…
These ones will be quite dim
Yeah, I suppose after a billion billion billion or so years, it probably would be
The light will eventually tire out and turn into radio waves or smth, I’m not a physicist
To al elder God that sees higher bands of the electromagnetic spectrum it would see be a very bright place!
Is that because of the accretion disk?
And Hawking radiation. Hawking radiation is pretty “dark” for solar-mass scale black holes and up, but it can become relatively very intense for smaller holes.
For the holes we observe astronomically, the things we can see are the accretion disks and the orbits of stars around the black hole.
But that happens because of matter falling into them, right? When they’ve already swallowed everything, there’s not going to be accretion disks.
Yeah, though eventually they should all evaporate one after another with a last huge tiny energy burst due to hawking radiation. But that will take a looooooooong ass time. And we still don’t know (might never know) if hawking radiation is real.
They said the same thing about the curvature of spacetime 100 years ago. Then it was proven like three years later.
Black holes ain’t black because they didn’t vote for Biden
/s
