• PugJesus@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Honestly, even if the DNC was completely even-handed in '16, I still think he would’ve lost. In '20, it was only some clever politiking (which, I must emphasize, is not illegitimate and quite literally part of the job) and Warren doing whatever the fuck she thought she was doing that sank him.

        • LanternEverywhere@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          The evidence shows the opposite of what you think. All polling at all times showed bernie beating trump by a much bigger margin than hillary.

          And the country was itching for someone who would shake up the status quo. Hillary was the epitome of status quo, while trump and bernie were very much the opposite.

          All evidence shows bernie would’ve done very well against trump.

          • phillaholic@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            the GOP never unleashed their attacks on Bernie, so those polls don’t mean much.

            • deft@ttrpg.network
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              Bernie won swing states which would be Hillary’s downfall.

              There was a push by the system for Hillary. The DNC ran shit past her campaign to give her the ups and who knows what else, Bernie was grassroots.

              • PugJesus@kbin.social
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                Hey, man, I’m not disagreeing with that assessment of the general election. But unfortunately, he needed to win the Dem primary to get to that point, and in 2016, it would have taken Hillary dropping the n-bomb on live tv to get Bernie over the finish line. She had a lot of name recognition and organization, her reputation hadn’t been completely cratered by losing to America’s biggest loser at that point, and Bernie was borderline taken by surprise by his success in '16. Man had been preaching the same thing for 30 years and suddenly, almost out of nowhere, interest surged like a wave.

                He was much more prepared in '20 (and had more name recognition to boot).

                • deft@ttrpg.network
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                  I don’t disagree with Clinton coming in with more weight but I don’t think she was ever that ahead of Sanders. The system in place, the DNC and other big players just preferred Hillary and that edge resulted in her win.

                  In a more fair race where the DNC was equally kind to Sanders or hostile to Clinton I think Sanders would’ve won it and we’d be such a different political landscape.

                  Clinton had a lot of shit that would’ve taken anyone out of the race but was granted extra lives by (what I see as) annoying shitty politicking bullshit.

            • grue@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              But who gives a flying fuck about that? The primary isn’t supposed to be anything more than a means to an end. Winning the general election is the part that’s actually important!

              • PugJesus@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                Unless you think Bernie could’ve run as a third party candidate and won in the general election, the primary is still incredibly important in any consideration of a realistic scenario of Bernie’s candidacy.

                • grue@lemmy.world
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                  The second half of your comment does not follow from the first half – that nonsense about Bernie running as a third-party candidate is nothing but a dishonest strawman argument.

                  Anyway, nothing about that abosolves the DNC of culpability for tipping the scales to run a candidate without enough across-the-aisle appeal to win the general election. They only have themselves to blame for Trump.

                  That goes double when you consider the fact that the people who would’ve provided Bernie’s margin of victor in the general election – those who liked him for his anti-authoritarianism, not his leftism – most likely couldn’t vote in the Democratic primary because they were too busy voting in the Republican one for somebody like Kasich in hopes of keeping Trump off the ballot in the first place.

        • zzzz@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Warren doing whatever the fuck she thought she was doing

          She was making sure Bernie lost by splitting the progressive vote. That was exactly the intention.

          • phillaholic@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            Because Bernie was entitled to the nomination? There’s a ton of authoritarian shit coming from Bernie fans. Between this, wanting to change the rules of primaries when he lost, wanting to ignore the popular vote to make him the nominee etc.

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            I understand why some people think that, which is why I mentioned it as the other possibility, but I honestly think it was simply a stupid mistake. People don’t get into politics unless they’re willing, to some degree, to make bets on long odds and embrace their inner ego. Sometimes, as with Warren’s refusal to drop out, that ends poorly.

            • voidMainVoid@lemmy.world
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              Warren claims that Bernie said something sexist to her, and I’m sure that played into it. At the end of the day, the 1% were able to get their people to drop out and unify behind a single candidate and the 99% weren’t.

        • MonkRome@lemmy.world
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          I never get the warren hate. Other than her native American gaff, she was a strong candidate and would have made a good president.

          • PugJesus@kbin.social
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            Hate is a strong word. It’s more that she made a decision that made no strategic sense, and was not a stand on moral principles or anything like that. It was just either a dumb choice, as we all make sometimes, or a conscious attempt to crater Bernie. It doesn’t really have a third option that I can think of.

            In either case, it was senseless, and any time the issue comes up, I draw attention to it, because it was fucking disastrous.

              • PugJesus@kbin.social
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                Oh, sorry, not dropping out on Super Tuesday. She was stayed in as a spoiler candidate on Super Tuesday despite the fact that polling showed that she hadn’t a chance in hell of actually making any progress towards the nomination, and all the other moderates had simultaneously dropped out to support Biden.

                • Heresy_generator@kbin.social
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                  all the other moderates had simultaneously dropped out to support Biden.

                  I love this alternative history where Michael Bloomberg doesn’t exist and didn’t take more votes away from Biden than Warren did Sanders.

                  Warren should have know it was Sanders’ turn, amirite?

          • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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            Other than her native American gaff,

            It wasn’t any kind of gaff…

            She said that she has a Native ancestor. Which a DNA test can’t disprove because:

            1. Not all of someone’s DNA gets passed on each generation.

            2. Native Americans have a pretty widespread dislike of DNA tests, so DNA tests don’t really know what to look for.

            Also,

            1. Native Americans focus their community on culture, not DNA

            Because of #3, anytime someone from outside their culture talks about ancestry, a bunch of tribes release boilerplate statements about how a DNA test doesn’t make anyone a Native or not a Native.

            I can’t remember how far back she said that ancestor was, but I think it was so far back that statistically the most likely result was going to be no native ancestry. People think DNA is all stamped with ethnicity of origin or something, it doesn’t work like that. There’s just certain mutations that can be tracked to specific isolated populations.

            Most DNA is just ambiguously human.

            So you take that slim chance of an identifiable mutation getting passed down every generation, and the low sampling rate among native populations, and yeah, lots of people will get negative results.

            However, it was extremely disappointing that she hired that ex Clinton campaign worker, and then took their advice and immediately started attacking Bernie. That was never about helping Warren, they were kamikazing her campaign into Bernie’s.

            And it worked.

            • Zaktor@sopuli.xyz
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              I can’t remember how far back she said that ancestor was, but I think it was so far back that statistically the most likely result was going to be no native ancestry.

              That’s not how DNA tests work. The experts consulted were confident she had Native ancestry, but it was unclear how far back. The 1/1024th isn’t a chance, it’s people who don’t understand DNA incorrectly converting “on the upper end of 6-10 generations” to 1 out of 1024 ancestors and then to 1/1024 chance. The statistics of it being true were very high even though the proportion of her DNA from the ancestor was small.

            • prole@sh.itjust.works
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              Also, I feel like most of these people are either too young to know life without the internet, or they forget, but this was something white, suburban, middle class people used to say all of the time. It was usually some story (true or not, I don’t know), passed down from their great grandparents or some shit, and probably altered like a game of telephone, until you’ve got a person telling their friends about how they’re “1/32 Cherokee” or some shit.

              There was never any way to check, and nobody really cared. It was a different time.

              I’m not defending what she said, it was a dumb thing to say. But it’s probably just based on some story she was told as a kid that may or may not be true.

            • FuglyDuck@lemmy.world
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              Not to mention, I’ve never heard a person- whose basically white, with no apparent native culture- use “I have Native American ancestry” as anything other than a cudgel to insist they can’t be racist.

              Usually while being racist. (Example: my grandfather.)

              • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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                Eh, depends on the area.

                The vast majority of “old family” Appalachians have natives somewhere on their family tree, it’s just most people never really talk about it.

                At most it’s offhand mention at family gatherings, which was exactly the context Warren said she heard. Her grandparent or whoever could very well had it and shown up on a test, but it gets exponentially harder the more generations go by

                Warren just happened to mention it on the campaign trail, and a bunch of people jumped on it.

                • FuglyDuck@lemmy.world
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                  At most it’s offhand mention at family gatherings, which was exactly the context Warren said she heard. Her grandparent or whoever could very well had it and shown up on a test, but it gets exponentially harder the more generations go by

                  it stopped being family history discussions when she mentions it on the campaign trail or on job applications. (I understand there’s conflicting evidence as to the Harvard thing, but, lets be honest here, it’s probably true).

                  such things coming up in the context of family history makes sense and wouldn’t (necessarily) be racist. But Warren went beyond that… when it’s usually pretty evident if someone’s family is Native American when they’re talking about it. the handful of soundbites I caught were very much in the manner my racist grandfather used to justify his angry bullshit screeds against Native Americans. that said, DNA tests are definitely never going to be conclusive about that. it’s patently ridiculous to think one’s heritage is genetic- heritage is a matter of culture; and culture is learned… distilling your heritage to a percentage based on DNA is a scam to get your DNA.

              • prole@sh.itjust.works
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                People used to say shit like this all of the time before the internet. It was usually just someone trying to sound cool, or set themselves apart from other kids in some way.

                If they weren’t just making it up whole cloth, It was usually some story passed down from their great grandparents that they’re repeating (probably inaccurately) about how someone x generations ago had a Cherokee father or some shit, then they do the math to claim that means they’re 1/32 Cherokee or whatever.

                Back then, I don’t remember it being used in any way as an argument against being racist. It was usually just people trying to be cool or different, or telling a boring story about their family that they think is true.

                I’m not excusing what she said, it was a stupid thing to say. I’m just not sure if it deserved the criticism it received.

        • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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          Honestly, even if the DNC was completely even-handed in '16, I still think he would’ve lost.

          Right. They pulled all the fuckery they pulled when they didn’t even need to and alienated voters they needed. Then didn’t even try to get them back. I worry they’re repeating the same “write off voters you need because you can blame them later” mistake now.

          In '20, it was only some clever politiking (which, I must emphasize, is not illegitimate and quite literally part of the job) and Warren doing whatever the fuck she thought she was doing that sank him.

          He got outmaneuvered in 2020, yes. The field narrowed to his disfavor and Biden got a key endorsement in South Carolina. This was probably due to some shrewd politicking on Biden’s part and I very much doubt it was the massive conspiracy that some of my fellow progressives allege.

          There are other factors, like how the press hated Sanders. I remember the lead up to South Carolina. They were just openly asking “how do we stop Sanders?” There was CNN’s “how did you feel when he said you couldn’t win because you’re a woman” at that one debate. May as well have just spat on him and called him a liar. You had Chris Matthews saying a Sanders presidency would result in public executions in Central Park. He sounded like he was on Fox News and not MSNBC. Chuck Todd’s “brownshirts” comment was disgraceful. He was kinder to the January 6 insurrectionists than he was to Sanders and his supporters.

          I think the party had its thumb firmly and unapologetically on the scale in 2016, but not 2020. Sanders just got outplayed in 2020.

          • DrPop@lemmy.one
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            The press consistently put out interviews during the prelims about people wanting Sanders but voting for Biden because he’s more likely to win. Bernie could have generated a ton of public and young support. I do think the corporate Dems didn’t want him to take power.

            • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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              I do think the corporate Dems didn’t want him to take power.

              Corpodems would prefer a Republican to a progressive in any given office.

    • rayyy@lemmy.world
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      He should have been president.

      Hands down. He had the populist vote of independents and many Republicans too. The right of center DNC torpedoed him. They weren’t going to allow a center left candidate through. Wasn’t the first time either. At the 1944 Democratic National Convention, conservative party leaders defeated a very popular Henry Wallace’s bid for renomination. I canceled all donations to the DNC and became an Independent.

      • grue@lemmy.world
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        He had the populist vote of independents and many Republicans too.

        To put a finer point on it: he had the margin of victory over Trump that Clinton did not, and it came from precisely the sorts of people who don’t vote in Democratic Party primaries (which is why the “but he couldn’t even win the primary” rebuttal is nothing but dishonest horseshit).

        • voidMainVoid@lemmy.world
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          “but he couldn’t even win the primary”

          TBH that says a lot more about the Democrats than it does about him.

          • phillaholic@lemm.ee
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            Not really. It benefited Republicans to not attack Bernie to make Clinton look worse. Had Bernie won that would have changed. They had a ton to attack him on, and we’ll never know how well it would have worked. The kind of bullshit they got people to believe about Clinton was insane. I still hear some of it today.

        • phillaholic@lemm.ee
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          This makes me laugh. You all whine about how unfair the DNC, the Media, centrists Democrats were to Bernie, and that caused him to lose the Primary. But you assume had he won the Primary that the Republican Party and Donald Trump would not have made all of that look like absolute childs play? If you can’t defend yourself against the DNC and CNN, you’re fucked when you go up against people that will just straight up lie about you. Using polls from when the GOP hadn’t said anything about Bernie is pointless. It was to their advantage to act like Bernie was perfect, it hurt Clinton.

        • prole@sh.itjust.works
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          Ummm hi… I enthusiastically supported Bernie in the primary, and then voted for Hillary in the general. Because Bernie lost the primary.

          You may have your anecdotal evidence, but my experience has been the opposite. That the people who complain the most about Bernie losing, are people who did not vote in the Democratic primary.

          The primary is the time for progressives (and young people, who are notorious for not showing up to vote in anything but the general, if they vote at all) to vote for progressive candidates.

          • grue@lemmy.world
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            The primary is the time for progressives

            Who the fuck is talking about progressives? We’re talking about all the other people who liked Bernie better than Trump, but who otherwise tended to like Republicans better than Biden. Specifically, the people who liked Bernie for his anti-authoritarianism and who held their noses for the leftist stuff. They can’t vote in a Democratic primary because they’re too busy voting in the Republican or maybe even the Libertarian one instead!

            More concretely: they couldn’t vote for Bernie because they were too busy voting for (probably) John Kasich.

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              the people who liked Bernie for his anti-authoritarianism and who held their noses for the leftist stuff.

              You know… Morons. Privileged assholes.

    • AllonzeeLV@lemmy.world
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      Our people don’t deserve a leader like him.

      Our people prefer charismatic liars that tell us we can get moooore than our neighbors if we play the rigged game and work against one another.

      Our people would much rather have a 0.1% chance of lucking into a lifestyle of perverse gluttony than have a 100% chance of everyone having a roof, a bed, and a full belly at night.

      Our people are selfish and cruel.

      I haven’t and won’t vote for any Republican ever, but I will admit, Donald Trump is the perfect reflection of the United States of America. We couldn’t ask for a mascot more reflective of our practiced values. He is the USA personified. All the toxic, antisocial traits we celebrate about ourselves: proud Greed, proud willfull ignorance, vanity, arrogance, all the - isms, unearned confidence, cruelty, gluttony, schadenfreude, nepotism, you might as well run him up a flag post and sing the star spangled banner while eating apple pie at a baseball game.

      • prole@sh.itjust.works
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        Our people would much rather have a 0.1% chance of lucking into a lifestyle of perverse gluttony than have a 100% chance of everyone having a roof, a bed, and a full belly at night.

        Doesn’t hurt that most Americans probably can’t even conceptualize what this even means, and have no understanding of just how big of a difference there is between those two percentages. They don’t even know what an order of magnitude is, let alone the implications of several.

    • Son_of_dad@lemmy.world
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      Dude is a failure who can’t even garner the support of his own party, let alone the entire country. Not too mention, you can’t complain about the age of Biden and Trump while naming a dinosaur like Bernie.

      He has great ideas but that’s about it, he’s as ineffectual as far as politicians go. You want to beat Trump, find someone who can win an election, not Bernie.

      • prole@sh.itjust.works
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        Dude is a failure who can’t even garner the support of his own party

        And which party would that be?

        • Son_of_dad@lemmy.world
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          Democrats, he’s a democrat. I’m not sure what you’re trying to bait.

          He couldn’t win the party nomination, which is step one to winning the presidential election.

          I’m not American so I can look at this from the outside and realize that no matter how right Bernie’s ideas are, he’s not gonna win it, and at his age he shouldn’t try. Y’all need to start looking for younger people, Bernie was a nice experiment, move on.

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        It’s not his party. He used the party to run for President, and people whine about how the party didn’t fall in love with him. Maybe he should I don’t know, join the fucking party and build a base of support. Otherwise he’s just mooching off them.

  • NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world
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    So we have a spare 10 billion for Israel, but not predatory studen loan debt relief for our own citizens? Sounds about right

    • bender223@lemmy.today
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      pls, giving student loan debt relief instead of $10 billion to Israeli gov’t is considered anti-Semitic 😔

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            At some point, we should simply allow children to be children. I’m not adverse to pre-k but I’m very adverse to conditioning them to work at ever*-earlier ages.

            *edited

            • Grimy@lemmy.world
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              The children yearn for the mines, give them what they really want. Let’s turn this into a 10 billion dollar profit.

              • Bakkoda@sh.itjust.works
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                Pre-mines. They spend a year in the mines as a learning experience ( unpaid internship) and then we send them off to school

                • rottingleaf@lemmy.zip
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                  Soviet school curriculum actually had a little bit of that. Well, how to tell ranks, what to do in case of war (also fire alarm or any other emergency), first aid, disassembly and assembly of the AK rifle, orientation on terrain and basic survival skills, not sure about actually firing at targets - I wasn’t alive back then.

                  In our school (I was born in 1996) there was literally one time where our class was taken to a shooting range, but it was more like a tour. The got to shoot a few rounds at targets, yes. The first aid, ranks and AK disassembly\assembly parts I do remember.

                  There were war-themed games (“Zarnitsa” etc) teaching coordination, subordination, orientation, and of course using radio (to communicate and to intercept the other team’s communications). EDIT: That I only heard about.

            • gregorum@lemm.ee
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              i don’t know what your pre-K was like, but i don’t remember mine requiring the kids to punch a timeclock, earn wages, or to perform any actual labor. IIRC, we played with toys, played games, sang songs, engaged in educational activities for toddlers, ate snacks, and took naps.

            • rynzcycle@kbin.social
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              If we had more funding for great teachers, it would be anything but pre-work. Ultimately, lower income families really benefit from free childcare schools provide, and a good pre-K classroom is all about play and exploring.

              Teaching at that level should be fun for kids and teachers (though also exhausting). It’s when underfunding forces teachers into a solid 8h of classroom time a day with a way too large class size that it turns work-like.

              I freelanced music ed and worked with 4-8 year olds in several different schools. Some were amazing, supportive teaching assistants and reasonable schedules with a few breaks in my day, kids loved it and so did I. Others, I felt like a warden just trying to stop a riot for 9 hours straight with a 20min lunch. 25+ 4 year olds with no support doesn’t work.

              • Maeve@kbin.social
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                What am amazing reply! I’m fully on board with fully funded, fully fun pre-k-12. I’d like to see it Montessori style, as well. Bring back recess, and for goodness’ sake, a full lunch hour.

        • MycoBro@lemmy.world
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          Free school lunch!? Well there, Karl, I bet they will give you a free lunch in the gulags.

      • John Richard@lemmy.world
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        Tell that to the media. CNN headline will be like… “Antisemetic Jewish Senator Supports Terrorist Group Hamas”

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        Hi, I get the joke here. By making it a joke when it’s not even the topic, you’re proactively diluting and mitigating the use of that word in advance of when it does make sense to use. If you can do anything with your free time, do you prefer it to be inadvertently (<

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          Given that Isreal is calling everyone and their mother (extra ironic in Judaism) anti semitic for not agreeing enthusiastically enough to ethnic cleansing/genocide, I am pretty confident they’re the ones who made the term meaningless. They litterally called the UN a bunch of Nazi sympathizers who would have supported the holocaust while at a UN meeting. Like my dude, why don’t you go sheckle heckle some actual nazi sympathizers and see if you walk out of the room.

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            Thank you. I couldn’t have said it any better. I mean, sometimes we joke about horrible stuff like this because we feel powerless to do anything about it, so at least we can poke fun at some of the silly aspects of the situation.

                • blazeknave@lemmy.world
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                  Basically any non majority population segments. In the West, typically straight white cishet male Christian. In reality we should include the poor but in the States they’re just embarrassed millionaires without their money yet, and regurgitate the views and will of the Haves.

          • rottingleaf@lemmy.zip
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            IIRC Eichmann kinda liked the state of Israel. He considered it a thing of the past that Nazis “had” to exterminate Jews, in the spirit of “well, it’s ancient history, everybody has done that, we all have our own racial interests in mind”.

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            It’s a post about the US government’s spending. Equivocating them proves my point that they’re just looking for an opportunity to normalize a dangerous sentiment. That antisemitism doesn’t exist. A disinformation campaign that has existed for centuries.

    • SCB@lemmy.world
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      Military aid is generally not cash.

      Now if you want to cut the military budget to do things at home, I’m all for that

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        It’s cash to the weapons manufacturers and substitutes for cash the recipient would need to pay. It’s not like we give those weapons away and then just have fewer weapons.

      • prole@sh.itjust.works
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        Student loan debt wouldn’t have been “cash” either. They’re federal loans. They’re just numbers on a computer at this point, and wiping it out would be trivial (as we’ve seen with the continued, successful, attempts for the Biden Admin to continue forgiving these loans on the sly using whatever loopholes they can).

        • SCB@lemmy.world
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          What I’m saying is that they say “give $X of aid” but really they’re giving $X worth of munitions and equipment they already have.

          Money on a computer is still money

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            Actually no. It it not always physical goods. Most often it’s a line of credit, basically a way for the government to kick back more funds to contractors that then kick back to bureaucrats and politicians.

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        Damn, every take you make on this forum is completely asinine lol.

        Military aid is generally not cash.

        So it’s free? Military equipment has no value and giving it away is not a loss?

        • joatmasterofnone@lemmy.world
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          At least if we are giving them tangible goods rather than cash, it’s not as fungible.

          But I don’t agree with giving ANY country aid. Shut it all off. We have shit at home to deal with.

          Any money being sent abroad is 100% eventually lining the pockets of politicians. Even money spent domestically does.

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          It’s not, but do you think we’re giving away cutting edge military tech or not developing that cutting edge tech that obsoletes the stuff we’re giving away regardless? It doesn’t really have a lot of value to the US rotting away in warehouse storage.

          Note that I’m not saying this in support of Israel nor am I well enough informed to know if this even applies there. It definitely applies to Ukraine aid, though.

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        The military budget isn’t even that large. You realize that Medicare, Medicaid, and Ss all used to be under HHS. They took it out because then people would realize that’s actually where something like 82% of our budget goes.

        And before you go, “military spending is 40% or whatever” that’s literally because they STOPPED including medicare/medicaid/SS (not all of them but I forget which ones) in those budget numbers. In reality, HHS, MC/MC, and SS EACH are larger line items than military spending.

        • SCB@lemmy.world
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          Bro I’m not engaging with a person who wants to end all foreign aid. That could not possibly be a worse position to hold.

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      The lower they are, the higher you seem. Helping the poor is never in their interest. If you are not poor, they are not rich.

    • joatmasterofnone@lemmy.world
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      1. Student loans through FAFSA are not and never were predatory. The real crime is they’re essentially the Kat Williams Bad Credit, No Credit, Unapproved Credit loans made real with no limits and no denials and so colleges, seeing free money (hey look, basically printing money for them, so Federal Reserve-like) jacked prices as high as they could.
      2. People should look at that cause and effect and realize that’s what forcing higher minimum wage does, handing out free money does, unilaterally absolving people of valid debt does, etc. Rather than demanding MORE money (because again, the only winner there is the tax man, every one else loses) they should be demanding answers for:
      3. Why have price of goods unnecessarily increased?
      4. Why has the purchasing power of the dollar gone to shit?
      5. Plot Twist: it’s government the whole way down.
      • NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world
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        Student loans through FAFSA are not and never were predatory.

        You’re really gonna sit here and try to tell me that a loan for the cost of education being 3-4 times what it should be isn’t predatory? All the while force feeding the narrative to children that if they don’t go to college they can’t be productive members of society?

        • phillaholic@lemm.ee
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          Glossing over the larger deal in that most people sign up for them as minors and they can’t be cleared through bankruptcy.

    • PugJesus@kbin.social
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      “There has never been a greater enemy of the Jewish people than Bernie Sanders.” - Bibi simps ten seconds from now

        • Jessica@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          Yup. My family is Jewish. None of us support the apartheid state. I have been called an antisemite for opposing Israel.

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              Idk. I don’t engage with it, for the most part. It would not surprise me though.

              Quick Edit: On Reddit, there were folks who said that I was lying about my family being Jewish. I used to recite The Four Questions each year for Pesach. I am no longer a practicing Jew, but that is not because I hate Judaism or the followers of.

    • Rapidcreek@reddthat.comOP
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      It’s clear Bernie doesn’t like Bibi. Dont blame him. But, right now it’s ‘Push’. The ‘Shove’ comes later.

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    We need more Bernie, really hope he has disciples or something. Man has decades of stamina fighting for the people

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      I think his movement has traction with the younger generation. Hopefully it motivates them and they keep it going.

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      A lot of his political supporters and constantly shamed for supposedly helping Trump because we dare voice how terrible the Democrat party is, and are assumed to not understand how strategic voting works or that one party can be less bad.

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        and are assumed to not understand how strategic voting works

        That would be a correct assumption. I’ve seen twice as much apathy come out of Bernie fans than Progress. This war is a good example. We can all disagree with how they go about what they are doing, but the idea that they should only be defending will lead to more attacks. If the US just increased airport security after 9/11 and didn’t go after Bin Laden, you better bet they’d send more. The answer isn’t doing that they are doing now, and it’s not doing nothing. Bernie might have the right idea in a ideal world, but in reality it’s not a great take and it makes other Democrats look bad that are having to make the difficult decisions which again spreads apathy. I don’t think there is a good solution to the problem without going back in time and not letting the West arbitrarily divide up the middle east and fuck everything up in the first place.

        • Doc Avid Mornington@midwest.social
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          The Bush government response after 9/11 increased radicalization, strengthened Al Qaeda, and decreased support for the US. It put us in more danger, in order to destabilize the Middle East, advance US imperialism, and line the pockets of international arms profiteers.

          The Netanyahu government response after 10/7 increased radicalization, strengthened Hamas, and decreased support for Israel. It put them in more danger, in order to destabilize the Middle East, advance US imperialism, and line the pockets of international arms profiteers.

          Maybe you’re correct that some action, other than strict defense, would be best, but that’s not on the table, here. In this context, the choice is between further funding the worst choice, or not doing that. What makes Democrats look bad is how many of them support further funding the worst case.

  • Churbleyimyam@lemm.ee
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    Bro I just want some more bombs, please bro come on, I won’t even do anything with them bro

    • bigFab@lemmy.world
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      The left: we only want universal health care and education! Also the left: *spends inflated billions on high performance environmentally friendly children massacring missiles.

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            We need a rubber-band snap back of the Overton Window in America. Right-wing media has skewed the perception of politics to such an extent that conservatism is fascism and center-left is genuine conservatism.

            America would be so much better off if all the centrist Dems and “mOdErAtE” Republicans like Kissinger and Cheney and Romney, et. al. made the Dems the new conservative party while a new genuine Social Democrat or Green Party (not astroturfed by Republicans, Koch Brothers, or Russian interests) filled the void of a genine progressive-leftist faction.

            • 🐱TheCat@sh.itjust.works
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              Okay but they have no incentive to do any of that and instead have monetary incentive to shift right

              Do participate in bringing ranked choice voting to your state if you want a shift left in the USA. Competition will force the shift you are looking for

            • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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              From what I’ve seen, we do have a lot more openly leftist people in America now, after decades of it being socially unacceptable. It’s just going to be a while before the older generations die off, and they’re the most likely to vote. Maybe if younger people actually turned out to the primaries things would be different.

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        You just read how Bernie (as lefty as they come in US) is opposing giving missiles to Israel, what the fuck are you talking about?

          • Nalivai@discuss.tchncs.de
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            Everything is only exist in its own context. But I even clarified that we’re talking about US (if it wasn’t obvious by the fact that we’re talk about US politicians)

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    Have they said what the 10bn would be used for? Because it seems like Israel doesn’t need financial help glassing over Gaza if we’re being honest. That 10bn could be used domestically to improve the lives of millions of people.

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      The word ‘holocaust’ goes back to a type of sacrifice in the Mediterranean where the animal bodies were burned in their entirety, coming from the Greek holos (‘whole’) and kaustos (‘burnt’).

      We call what the Nazis did “the Holocaust” because they systematically killed and then burnt the bodies to ash in crematoriums.

      So no, even if you think Israel is committing genocide in Palestine, they are not perpetuating a holocaust, unless they start gathering up the bodies of the dead and burning the majority of them to ash.

      The Holocaust was a genocide, but not all genocides are a Holocaust (in fact, it was pretty much just the one).

      • Lucidlethargy@sh.itjust.works
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        I mean… They are bombing countless civilians into ash and dust. But I agree with your point of view as a whole. We need a better word here for the horrors Israel is committing.

        • Herbal Gamer@sh.itjust.works
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          etymology of Holomodor

          The name Holodomor is explained as coming from the Ukrainian words ”holod” which means hunger, and ”mor” which means plague: ”In the Ukrainian language, the famine of 1932 and 1933 famine is called ‘holodomor’, which means extermination by starvation.

          There you go.

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          Thank you. Trying to explain this away with etymology is pedantic and short sighted. The reason the word was used was to point out the hypocrisy that Israel continues to milk sympathy due to the Holocaust, capital H, whole committing genocide of their own.

          Now everyone who wants to draw that comparison has to explain that they don’t really mean holocaust they just mean genocide but they’re saying holocaust to point out hypocrisy? Absurd.

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        This is absurd and distracting from the point being made by the OP. Even if you’re technically correct, it’s pedantic not useful to the conversation.

      • crystal@feddit.de
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        I guess, now it’ll rain dislikes for me?

        I find this to be a weird thing to add to a comment. Everytime I see this in a comment I wonder what its purpose is. Are you trying to prove that you know your opinion is unpopular? That you will stoically endure the downvotes to have your opinions heard? It seems odd.

        • ⚡⚡⚡@feddit.de
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          I’ve just had a few experiences… I had a different oppinion and I experienced that some people think, they had to decide between like and dislike when there is in fact one more option (not clicking anything) and because the view on the conflict here is recognizably (is this a word?) different than the average view in Germany.

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      Here’s what I can pretty much guarantee will be an unpopular observation; Israel is 100 percent committed to eliminating Hamas, for understandable reasons. They aren’t going to stop until the job is done. Therefore, if you really care about innocent Palestinian civilians getting killed, you should want to give Israel more aid since the faster they are able to destroy Hamas, the less innocent civilians get killed.

      Not sure that I agree with the morality of this proposition. It seems pretty sound, but I am still wrestling with it.

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            It was a joint US-Israel-Britian effort, that was going fine until Israel modified it to do more which allowed it to escape the target and be found out by international security researchers. Up until that point, they thought their engineers were screwing up.

    • interceder270@lemmy.world
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      And Israel is the only nation with nukes that gets to lie about having them.

      Fuck Israel. Fuck zionists.

          • frezik@midwest.social
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            Sort of. Ukraine had Soviet nukes, and gave them up for security guarantees with Russia. Libya and Iraq had also previously given up their weapons of mass destruction programs.

            South Africa is the only one on the list that wasn’t later invaded by a larger power. The Great Powers are teaching the smaller ones that if they give up their weapons of mass destruction programs, they’ll get invaded later.

            • AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world
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              Ukraine never had control of those nukes. They got a good deal to have them moved into Russian territory, but if Ukraine had wanted to keep the nukes, they’d have been attacking Russian soldiers to get them, and wouldn’t have had the launch codes. Ukraine got the best deal they could under the circumstances, especially since the US wasn’t particularly concerned about Ukraine at the time.

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                That’s silly. Between the end of the war and 2006 was quite some time for them to be attacked and yet nobody did. Even though they have been assholes about it the whole time. Them having thousands of artillery pieces aimed at Seoul worked just fine as a deterence without any nuke around. Big brother China also did help I guess.

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              So what I’m hearing is whatever you do, do not give up your nukes. You will get invaded.

      • AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world
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        Japan is also on the list of countries that don’t officially have nukes, but essentially just have to tighten some screws and they’ll have working nukes.

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    To be precise, Bernie opposes unconditional aid. He’s not completely opposed to any aid to Israel whatsoever; He wants to stipulate the aid under the condition that the Israel government does more to safeguard the lives of uninvolved Palestinian civilians.

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      The entire article seems designed to confuse if not intentionally mislead the reader.

      “Unconditional” certainly would have fit in the title.

      Or, if not, it could have been added to the text below the title that instead juxtaposes Republican opposition as if to suggest Bernie has the same interests as Republicans.

      Or, it could have at least been in the first paragraph where they state Bernie’s opposition again.

      But no, you have to read through nearly half the article to find that important qualifier in paragraph 5.

      It’s hard to imagine this is anything other than an attempt to misrepresent his position.

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        It seems that way because it is. It’s a for-profit media company, owned and run by rich neoliberals, who are shareholders in other for-profit companies owned by neoliberals, reporting on someone who is a genuine threat to that system.

        Most of the “left vs right” in politics and media is just an elaborate pantomime to vie for market share. The moment someone is a genuine threat to neoliberalism, watch them all unite to take them down.

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      Why does it matter? The current Israel money and weapons are conditional with stipulations against the war crimes and genocide they are currently doing. But no one from the President to Congress is doing anything about it.

  • interceder270@lemmy.world
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    Israel can take it from their ruling class.

    Israel has an intel fab, just to highlight how wealthy the nation is.

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    Must be getting close to an election. The anti Berne ads thinly disguised as news have been popping up a lot.

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        Yeah, this is like one of those illusions where you can’t tell if you’re looking at two people staring at each other or a vase. If you’re a leftie, you look at this and go, “Good, based Bernie.” If you only consume the mainstream narrative that the Israelis are on the right side of history here and opposition to their campaign or our support for it are heresy, this reads like “Bad Commie Bernie.”

        Edit: Just read the article. It quotes Bernie heavily, seems to let him represent his own position. It juxtaposes the Israeli claim that they’re not being indiscriminate against some pretty ugly numbers about the dead and displaced. The article reads pretty pro-Bernie to me.

        • dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          It’s NBC news. They’ll be promoting a pro-Israel stance. They know exactly what happens to political persons that publicly condemn Israel.

  • Estiar@lemmy.world
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    Israel doesn’t really need the aid. They’re doing just fine militarily